TPVP Brown Bag Series: Meeting 1

On April 8th, Linden Lab VP of Platform and Technology, Joe Linden (Joe Miller), Sent an email to the OpenSource Listserv, “Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)” inviting list members to join him in an informal “brown bag” to discuss Third Party Viewer Policy concerns. This is but the first of those meetings which was close to an hour long. Unfortunately, I was unable to do an audio capture as I was experiencing computer problems. The partial text chat transcript (which is split into meeting & post meeting sections) can be found below the cut.

NB: Thank you to Gareth Nelson for providing the audio recording of this meeting.

Meeting

[2010/04/13 13:06] Morgaine Dinova: Joe: we accept that your intent is not to violate the GPL, but the WORDS are in conflict.

[2010/04/13 13:06] Geneko Nemeth: Morgaine++

[2010/04/13 13:06] Lance Corrimal: i did

[2010/04/13 13:06] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: (no names). it was indeed a legal engagemet to review the doc by experts in the field. Not FSF on this, but well known experts.

[2010/04/13 13:07] Zarutian Morpork: Morgaline++

[2010/04/13 13:07] Lance Corrimal: i actually contacted the FSF on the tpv

[2010/04/13 13:07] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: So…morgaine, you’ve been very consistent with that system,b ut I won’t debate it with you.

[2010/04/13 13:07] Lance Corrimal: and according to their licensing expert the TPV policy is not conflicting the gpl

[2010/04/13 13:07] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: several people contacted FSF…

[2010/04/13 13:07] Saijanai Kuhn: since the policy concerns logging in to a service, the GPL doesn’t directly cover the TPV in the first place (most on Slashdot have suggested this)

[2010/04/13 13:07] Ron Ghostaltar: Joe: If you can I recommend visiting the FSF with this TPV and any changes

[2010/04/13 13:07] Geneko Nemeth: He suggested “get a lawyer”.

[2010/04/13 13:07] Geneko Nemeth: (RMS)

[2010/04/13 13:07] Dzonatas Sol: I’ve seen one Judge decide by the letter of the law and another Judge take the same case and judge by the intent…. don’t tell us what a judge will do either way

[2010/04/13 13:08] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] theory: TPV is about service, not about code, therefore no conflict.

[2010/04/13 13:08] CPU Core: here is a chance for voicing the parts that are in conflict and getting a real answer what they mean from joe.

[2010/04/13 13:08] Theodolite Wickentower: My question on the lawyers… were they well versed in the technology? From an engineering background I’ve had to rewrite too many legaleeze documents when the lawyer was not familiar with the technology.

[2010/04/13 13:08] Kyrah Abattoir: so that means no liability for developpers, only for users, right?

[2010/04/13 13:08] Ceawlin Steamweaver: And we’re certain that any lawyer/judge in their right mind will interpret it that way?

[2010/04/13 13:08] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Techwolf: what if someone connects MY code to LL? HAve they made me responsible???

[2010/04/13 13:09] Da5id Kronfeld: Err… who knows *what* a judge is gonna say

[2010/04/13 13:09] Abriel Pleides: this is why the matter of intent needs to be put into the tpvp

[2010/04/13 13:09] Boroondas Gupte: so rip out the networking code?

[2010/04/13 13:09] Morgaine Dinova: I am unhappy with the statement “We consulted experts on the GPL, but will not reveal who”. Experts from Microsoft perhaps? Very clearly the view of the GPL that was used for the TPV is not the conventional one.

[2010/04/13 13:09] Lonely Bluebird: How can a developer who has never connected have agreed to the third party viewer policy?

[2010/04/13 13:09] Aleric Inglewood: Does that mean you CAN be legally liable for damages for written code, as soon as some OTHER user connects to the grid and does damage using some accidental bug?

[2010/04/13 13:09] Evan Hush: yes

[2010/04/13 13:09] Ceawlin Steamweaver: CeeJay++

[2010/04/13 13:09] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Ceejay: what if someone takes my pre-bug-fix code and abuses it?

[2010/04/13 13:09] Zarutian Morpork: so the question is: “is the script kiddie responsible or the tool writer?” 😉

[2010/04/13 13:09] Thickbrick Sleaford: If they didn’t agree to the TPV agreement (i.e. quit SL), they are free to develop whatever copybot they want.

[2010/04/13 13:09] Ron Hubbard: can someone confirm that we can completely exit this agreement by canceling our second life accounts and moving to another platform like opensim?

[2010/04/13 13:10] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Ceejay: NO WARANTY just reflects that small-timers don’t have the resources to defend themselves in court.

[2010/04/13 13:10] Kyrah Abattoir: Well all it means is that from now on third party viewer developpers will have to keep their SL and real identity hidden…

[2010/04/13 13:10] Gareth: SL-Ron|Hubbard: how would they hold you to it?

[2010/04/13 13:10] Merov Linden notes that MS does the same “no warranty” claims

[2010/04/13 13:10] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Ceejay: I hope you remember we’re mostly good guys here,.

[2010/04/13 13:10] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: we do.

[2010/04/13 13:10] Gareth: does anyone know how they would be able to?

[2010/04/13 13:10] Zarutian Morpork: Ron: that is perhaps the soloution

[2010/04/13 13:10] Morgaine Dinova: Joe: that “tool” cannot be a wildcard.

[2010/04/13 13:10] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: it’s about giving us a tool to use against the real bad guys.

[2010/04/13 13:10] Ron Hubbard: Zarutian: i would like confirmation

[2010/04/13 13:10] Latif Khalifa: Merov, every software compeny in the world does that

[2010/04/13 13:11] Evan Hush: but thattoolk as you said an be used in any instance

[2010/04/13 13:11] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: If it came to arbitration or a judge, we belive the policy as written would clearly state our intent.

[2010/04/13 13:11] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: it’s certainly not about holding you accountable for bugs that cause inventory loss, for instanc.e

[2010/04/13 13:11] Aleric Inglewood: *sigh*

[2010/04/13 13:11] CPU Core: wow Ron hubbard is here???

[2010/04/13 13:11] Zarutian Morpork: also please note that clickthrough licesences and agreements arent legal agreements in some juristictions in the world

[2010/04/13 13:11] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: That’s so far from th eintent, that it’s hard to know where to begin.

[2010/04/13 13:11] Rex Cronon: joe. can u add that to the tos?

[2010/04/13 13:11] WhiteStar Magic: -loginuri http:// SL would have to be blocked in code is designed NOT connect to LL, to prevent Overide in the Binary, BUT the Source could be Modified by an external entirty which transfers that liability

[2010/04/13 13:11] Morgaine Dinova: Joe: if you WRITE the intent in the TPV, all will be well. But a judge will interpret the WORDS of the TPV, not the INTENT.

[2010/04/13 13:11] Ichi Merit: no… he is dead

[2010/04/13 13:11] Boroondas Gupte: Can you guarantee that that tool [TPVp] will never ever be abused by Linden Lab, even if LL changes owners? If not, it should be formulated so it cannot possibly be abused.

[2010/04/13 13:12] Kyrah Abattoir: well i do not sign a white page personally

[2010/04/13 13:12] CPU Core: hes not dead hes sitting right here

[2010/04/13 13:12] Morgaine Dinova: Angela: sorry but wildcards don’t work here.

[2010/04/13 13:12] Kyrah Abattoir: or blank checks for that matter

[2010/04/13 13:12] Serenity Rosencrans: it sometimes happen

[2010/04/13 13:12] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Latif: then just put that in the plicy! Angela: they can’t put all that stuff in there, get real.

[2010/04/13 13:12] Serenity Rosencrans: *happens

[2010/04/13 13:12] Ichi Merit: did he bring Tom Cruise with him?

[2010/04/13 13:12] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] …tool…..deep pockets….hobbyists w/o financial resources….

[2010/04/13 13:12] Abriel Pleides: the more grey areas there are leaves too much area for broad interpretations

[2010/04/13 13:12] Saijanai Kuhn: at the least, they could say that deliberately writing code that violates the TPV is a big no-no

[2010/04/13 13:13] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] …will just stop developing…

[2010/04/13 13:13] CPU Core: not sure.. hes hard to see in a crowd

[2010/04/13 13:13] Aleric Inglewood: Will Linden Lab take legal action (court) against developers that write export code and do not distribute that?

[2010/04/13 13:13] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Latif: so now I, as developer of a helpful text client, have to hire a lawyer? Crap.

[2010/04/13 13:13] Sebastean Steamweaver: I think one thing people are concerned about, is if a malicious user finds an exploit via a bug in a non-malicious viewer from a non-malicious dev. The dev doesn’t want to be held responsible.

[2010/04/13 13:13] Morgaine Dinova: Hehe, yep

[2010/04/13 13:13] Evan Hush: so true

[2010/04/13 13:13] Fleep Tuque: (heh)

[2010/04/13 13:14] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] USA is litigious…

[2010/04/13 13:14] Tillie?Ariantho: Why not put the tiny details in there? Every tine detail got into the TOS, too. And as we have to accept that TPV thingy or not connect to SL, every tiny detail should b

[2010/04/13 13:14] Tillie?Ariantho: e clear in here, too. No?

[2010/04/13 13:14] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Angela: people are saying OMG I’m scared…such a huge overrreaction…

[2010/04/13 13:14] Kyrah Abattoir: so we basically have to take LindenLabs “word” that they won’t use theyr super broad policy against us?

[2010/04/13 13:14] Morgaine Dinova: This is why you cannot even try to override the GPL “NO WARRANTY” clause. It’s essential.

[2010/04/13 13:14] Saijanai Kuhn: not to mention that a text-ony viewer that connects to SL is required to add a web-browser service just to show the login screen

[2010/04/13 13:14] Ron Hubbard: i would like a concrete answer on how we can keep libOpenMetaverse out of this TPV policy completely. cancel my second life account and disable connecting to SL by default?

[2010/04/13 13:14] Da5id Kronfeld: Nothing the the TPV prevents devs from being sued regardless =/

[2010/04/13 13:15] Ron Hubbard: is there anything else i need to do to make sure i can continue to distribute the software under an unmodified BSD license including the no warranyty disclaimer?

[2010/04/13 13:15] Latha Serevi: d[Transcript] Angela: …script kiddies…. tools against script kiddies….

[2010/04/13 13:15] Da5id Kronfeld: anyone can sue anyone

[2010/04/13 13:15] Gavin Hird: you dont

[2010/04/13 13:15] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Latif: script kiddies don’t read it., it just harms the conscientious people.

[2010/04/13 13:15] Gavin Hird: and besides national legislation comes into play the moment you want to sue someone

[2010/04/13 13:15] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: to sum up…

[2010/04/13 13:15] Morgaine Dinova: I think it’s very clear here that Angela does not represent the views of the TPV developer community here.

[2010/04/13 13:15] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: 7A, some things that makes sense… and 7D…..

[2010/04/13 13:15] CPU Core: the question is how do developers think this new policy will affect them and then get an answer from Joe if this is the case 🙂

[2010/04/13 13:16] Kyrah Abattoir: well we can take our beads and focuse solely on opensim too.

[2010/04/13 13:16] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: some valued devs are going to still have to make a personal choice whether LL intends to sue people who clearly intend no harm….

[2010/04/13 13:16] Zarutian Morpork: signaling intent or not isnt the question here

[2010/04/13 13:16] Ceawlin Steamweaver: It appears to me, Joe, that another user can sue the developer over bugs that cause losses….

[2010/04/13 13:16] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Latif: it’s not just LL, it opens us up to everybody else too.;

[2010/04/13 13:16] Morgaine Dinova: Agree with Latif

[2010/04/13 13:16] Aimee Linden: the you need to take the stseps to mitigate that, we can’t do it for you

[2010/04/13 13:17] Aimee Linden: *steps

[2010/04/13 13:17] Evan Hush: lol

[2010/04/13 13:17] Ceawlin Steamweaver: What Lance said.

[2010/04/13 13:17] Abriel Pleides: tpv dev’s need to be cleared of liability from bugs in LL source code

[2010/04/13 13:17] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Lance describes a bug that causes hard drive loss; don’t want to increase dev liabilituy for this.

[2010/04/13 13:17] Sebastean Steamweaver: Well, in all honesty, the person better learn data redundancy if they only store their tehsis in their my documents, hehe.

[2010/04/13 13:17] Tillie?Ariantho: I think there a two choices for LL, quite simple. 🙂 a) you change that and have a happy community. b) you dont: all delevopers are off to elsewhere. Take the red pill o

[2010/04/13 13:17] Tillie?Ariantho: r the blue pill. :->

[2010/04/13 13:18] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Angela: if a litigious person exists, they’ll do it anywah. it’s moot.

[2010/04/13 13:18] Serenity Rosencrans: but the TPV gives them extra teeth to do it

[2010/04/13 13:18] Theodolite Wickentower: RL calls.

[2010/04/13 13:18] Morgaine Dinova: This is why Marty Linden was so right — the user of a TPV is responsible from all problems derived from using a TPV.

[2010/04/13 13:18] Lonely Bluebird: Tillie: Do not speak for anyone but yourself – ALL DEVELOPERS are not going to go off elsewhere.

[2010/04/13 13:18] Serenity Rosencrans: gives users teeth to attack developers

[2010/04/13 13:18] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Fleep: what’s new is , LL says “we’re not responsible but devs are”

[2010/04/13 13:18] Morgaine Dinova: Agree with Fleep.

[2010/04/13 13:18] Tillie?Ariantho: Lonely: What I have seen: most are. minus you then. ^^

[2010/04/13 13:18] Gavin Hird: to be subject to a suit like that, the lisence must be upheld under your national legislation

[2010/04/13 13:18] Thickbrick Sleaford: That’s ok for LL to say it, but not OK for them to requires us to sign that statment.

[2010/04/13 13:19] Kyrah Abattoir: yeah like if Hekley & Koch was responsible of what peoples do with their guns

[2010/04/13 13:19] Dzonatas Sol: People still mix up responsibility for content with resposibility for software

[2010/04/13 13:19] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Latif: concern is, 7A is inconsistent with NO WARRANTY.

[2010/04/13 13:19] Da5id Kronfeld: It would be simple to drop the bit about the dev being responsible

[2010/04/13 13:19] Electron Electricteeth: It seems that if LL can release themselves of responsibility, we should have the same right.

[2010/04/13 13:19] Fleep Tuque: Yes, that seems the crux of the issue

[2010/04/13 13:19] Gavin Hird: and i many of the European countries, the policy will not be even be recognized by the courts

[2010/04/13 13:19] Sebastean Steamweaver: I think it would be sufficient to just forget making developers liable for their code, but instead make the user responsible for what they do with a viewer, bug exploit or not.

[2010/04/13 13:19] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Lance: says TpV is liable for whatever anybody does with that viewer.

[2010/04/13 13:19] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: thank you all, very helpful, you’ve been very clear.

[2010/04/13 13:19] Morgaine Dinova: Yep. It’s clearly unbalanced.

[2010/04/13 13:20] Mojito Sorbet: More next week?

[2010/04/13 13:20] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: my interest is to see if we can find a good place for us all to end up.

[2010/04/13 13:20] Fleep Tuque: Thank you Joe

[2010/04/13 13:20] Abriel Pleides: same time next week?

[2010/04/13 13:20] Kyrah Abattoir: drama?!

[2010/04/13 13:20] Fleep Tuque: This was actually pretty low drama all thigns considered

[2010/04/13 13:20] Aeonix Aeon: Liability for content created with a browser isn’t appropriate because it’s the same as liability for things made with say.. Dreamweaver for normal websites

[2010/04/13 13:20] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: That’s what I wanted to accomplish, and I wanted to have this conversation….

[2010/04/13 13:20] Lance Corrimal: drama?

[2010/04/13 13:20] Fleep Tuque: I don’t see any flaming puitchfork props

[2010/04/13 13:20] Fleep Tuque: 😉

[2010/04/13 13:20] Ichi Merit: need more drama

[2010/04/13 13:20] Gavin Hird: drama?

[2010/04/13 13:20] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: So….same time next week is my current plan….

[2010/04/13 13:20] Latif Khalifa: what drama lol

[2010/04/13 13:20] Cisop Sixpence: Thanks Joe.

[2010/04/13 13:20] Dahlia Trimble: Thank you Joe 🙂

[2010/04/13 13:20] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: …see what we can do over 7 days….

[2010/04/13 13:20] Robin Cornelius: Thanks Joe

[2010/04/13 13:20] Mojito Sorbet: I see no drama

[2010/04/13 13:20] Hydrogen2 Oxygen: Thank you Joe

[2010/04/13 13:20] Abriel Pleides: thanks joe

[2010/04/13 13:20] Tillie?Ariantho: Gavin: true. But in the end wont help you being european. they maybe may not be able to sue you, but you are off the grid then anyway.

[2010/04/13 13:20] Zarutian Morpork: this was rather constrainted, little drama

[2010/04/13 13:20] Geneko Nemeth: There was drama all right, I was in a bit of drama too. But yes, it could have been much, much worse.

[2010/04/13 13:20] Boroondas Gupte: Thanks for listening!

[2010/04/13 13:20] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Thanks for your time, all Lindens. 🙂

[2010/04/13 13:20] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] [thanks joe, gj joe…]

[2010/04/13 13:20] Flimsey Freenote: good job Joe

[2010/04/13 13:20] Zha Ewry: Thanks for the time, pateience, and ears

[2010/04/13 13:21] Morgaine Dinova: Thanks Joe.

[2010/04/13 13:21] Hydrogen2 Oxygen: Later

[2010/04/13 13:21] Dzonatas Sol: Thanks for your time Joe & Lindens!

[2010/04/13 13:21] Latif Khalifa: thanks joe

[2010/04/13 13:21] JB Hancroft: Joe – will you give us reasonable time after any updates to the policy, for legal review?

[2010/04/13 13:21] Johan Neddings: Thanks and see you next week 🙂

[2010/04/13 13:21] Machiel Menges: thanks joe ã‹¡

[2010/04/13 13:21] Saijanai Kuhn: A reminder: the conversation continues in AW Groupies.

[2010/04/13 13:21] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Joe Linden: Thanks, be back in touch soon. Over and out.

[2010/04/13 13:21] Opensource Obscure: thanks and bye everybody

[2010/04/13 13:21] CPU Core: bye joe

[2010/04/13 13:21] Gavin Hird: cheers

[2010/04/13 13:21] Zarutian Morpork: thanks for the meeting

[2010/04/13 13:21] Machiel Menges: crash drama

[2010/04/13 13:21] Kyrah Abattoir: i guess they just didn’t hear what they wanted to -_-

[2010/04/13 13:21] Johan Neddings: K, laterz all 🙂

[2010/04/13 13:21] Morgaine Dinova: I saw no drama. This was a very calm conversation.

[2010/04/13 13:21] Fleep Tuque: nod

[2010/04/13 13:21] Opensource Obscure: are you going to make drama about drama mention by Joe?

[2010/04/13 13:21] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Angela: I didn’t see too much drama! ….general agreement, we did OK today…..

[2010/04/13 13:21] Opensource Obscure: XD

[2010/04/13 13:21] Evan Hush: haha

[2010/04/13 13:22] CPU Core: stage invasion!

[2010/04/13 13:22] Robin Roar: Crashing drama maybe

[2010/04/13 13:22] Gareth: who wants the recording?

[2010/04/13 13:22] Evan Hush: i do

[2010/04/13 13:22] Latha Serevi: [Transcript] Transcript ends. Random chitchat begins. Cheers, bye from Latha.

Post Meeting

[2010/04/13 13:22] Evan Hush: @gareth

[2010/04/13 13:22] Morgaine Dinova: Agree Techwolf!

[2010/04/13 13:22] Fleep Tuque: Thank you Latha for the transcript

[2010/04/13 13:22] Gareth: gimme an email

[2010/04/13 13:22] Aleric Inglewood: drama happens when

[2010/04/13 13:22] Fleep Tuque: that ws very helpfuL!

[2010/04/13 13:22] Gareth: [email redacted]

[2010/04/13 13:22] Evan Hush: thank you

[2010/04/13 13:22] Da5id Kronfeld: Mother sued daugher’s friends

[2010/04/13 13:23] Latif Khalifa: yes, Latha, great work!

[2010/04/13 13:23] Da5id Kronfeld: or was it was the other way around?

[2010/04/13 13:23] Karen Palen: where can we get acopy of the trascript? I was late getting here

[2010/04/13 13:23] Morgaine Dinova: Latha has been doing a fantastic job on transcripts. I want to give huge thanks to Latha — I hope others do too.

[2010/04/13 13:23] Aleric Inglewood: I read that too…

[2010/04/13 13:23] Gareth: SL-Karen|Palen: i have an mp3 of the voice

[2010/04/13 13:23] Gareth: email me – [email redacted]

[2010/04/13 13:23] IFellThroughA Trapdoor: yeag great job Latha

[2010/04/13 13:23] Lance Corrimal: anyways… poof

[2010/04/13 13:24] CPU Core: the new policy doesnt affect good honest viewers at all

[2010/04/13 13:24] Kyrah Abattoir: wich doesn’t apply in europe too

[2010/04/13 13:24] Geneko Nemeth: CPU: No it does.

[2010/04/13 13:24] CPU Core: how?

[2010/04/13 13:24] Morgaine Dinova: There are legal remedies against malicious code in the ToS, there’s no need for a TPV policy at all for that.

[2010/04/13 13:24] Geneko Nemeth: Warrenty/responsibility confusion , for one.

[2010/04/13 13:24] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Angela, I am more worried about another user suing over losses due to some innocuous bug, because the TPV seems to prevent me from using the usual no warranty clause to avoid that. :< [2010/04/13 13:24] Karen Palen: Ok thanks gareth, I would rather have a text version though if possible

[2010/04/13 13:24] Geneko Nemeth: And others ,like trying to protect the user’s privacy from LL

[2010/04/13 13:24] Gavin Hird: but the Tos are not transferable outside of the US inn most cases

[2010/04/13 13:25] Evan Hush: yeah thants not that cool

[2010/04/13 13:25] CPU Core: there is no doubt you have confusion but in reality you can deny liability the same

[2010/04/13 13:25] Evan Hush: lol

[2010/04/13 13:25] Evan Hush: doesnt mean they will win

[2010/04/13 13:25] Gareth: anyone got suggestions for one central place i can upload this MP3?

[2010/04/13 13:25] Mojito Sorbet: TPV devs should make sure they have their own clear disclaimer.

[2010/04/13 13:25] Geneko Nemeth: Or building a viewer that allows creators to license stuff under CC licenses and share them over SL.

[2010/04/13 13:25] Evan Hush: people can sue anyone for anything

[2010/04/13 13:25] Gareth: i was thinking thepiratebay.org………..

[2010/04/13 13:25] Evan Hush: exactly

[2010/04/13 13:25] Geneko Nemeth: Yes, the problem is that the TPV leaves space for such confusion!

[2010/04/13 13:25] Govern Overland: IN the US.. Any joe blow. can sue you any time they want.. regardless of the subject matter.

[2010/04/13 13:26] vivox speakerphone 0.95 whispers: Speakerphone disabled to new calls

[2010/04/13 13:26] CPU Core: people dont even bother suing the normal person because theres no money in it.. suing is only worthwhile against corps with lots of cash

[2010/04/13 13:26] Morgaine Dinova: Angela: in the last N years, the GPL has protected GPL developers of SL viewers. The concern is that the TPV’s *words* has apparently been trying to override that “NO WARRANTY” clauses of the GPL.

[2010/04/13 13:26] Karen Palen: I am more concerned about th ehysteria this generates

[2010/04/13 13:26] Mojito Sorbet: 7c should be enough. No need for 7a

[2010/04/13 13:26] Geneko Nemeth: It’s still risky, though.

[2010/04/13 13:26] Aeonix Aeon: Frivolous lawsuits shall abound unless they fix it

[2010/04/13 13:26] Kyrah Abattoir: the tpv won’t stand in court tho

[2010/04/13 13:26] Geneko Nemeth: The wording, as is, doesn’t respect

[2010/04/13 13:26] Kyrah Abattoir: no matter how mean and evil the viewer is

[2010/04/13 13:26] Evan Hush: can we not say malicious?

[2010/04/13 13:26] Kyrah Abattoir: it will be trumped by the gpl

[2010/04/13 13:27] Geneko Nemeth: GPL-ganted freedom to tinker and share.

[2010/04/13 13:27] Boroondas Gupte: it doesn’t have to become more explicit, but more precise. that’s possible without making it longer

[2010/04/13 13:27] Morgaine Dinova: Angela: that doesn’t excuse impossibly overreaching terms.

[2010/04/13 13:27] CPU Core: all you need to do is have a plicy for people using your viewer saying you are not liable

[2010/04/13 13:27] Kyrah Abattoir: wich means it’s the wrong weapon for the job

[2010/04/13 13:27] Evan Hush: or do we need to determine what woiuld be determined as malicious

[2010/04/13 13:27] Mojito Sorbet: Agreeing to the TPV could weaken your case in court, where you just rely on your own disclaimer

[2010/04/13 13:27] CPU Core: *policy

[2010/04/13 13:27] CPU Core: you can create all the things linden labs has to protect them

[2010/04/13 13:28] Geneko Nemeth: And that’s the prob

[2010/04/13 13:28] Morgaine Dinova: Indeed Techwolf

[2010/04/13 13:28] Kyrah Abattoir: i suggest any serious third party viewer developper to make their user support SL, not by default, so it may connect but you can claim it never was your intend

[2010/04/13 13:28] Geneko Nemeth: The fact that it can be understood that devs cannot claim liability is a problem of the TPV.

[2010/04/13 13:28] Kyrah Abattoir: gun factories aren’t suied for murder angela

[2010/04/13 13:28] Dale Glass: hm volume is very variable

[2010/04/13 13:28] Geneko Nemeth: Not their intent but the wording is the problem.

[2010/04/13 13:29] Evan Hush: what if its not intended to be used with second life

[2010/04/13 13:29] Evan Hush: ?

[2010/04/13 13:29] Geneko Nemeth: As I said, I’m not opposed to them banning certain clients.

[2010/04/13 13:29] CPU Core: i cant see anyone ever successfully taking a TPV developer to court and winning

[2010/04/13 13:29] Gavin Hird: so how is Linden lab going to be able to go after a developer that is outside the US?

[2010/04/13 13:29] Mojito Sorbet: OpenSim is not a service

[2010/04/13 13:29] Morgaine Dinova: The intent is fine. The TPV should express the intent.

[2010/04/13 13:29] CPU Core: unless the third party viewer was made to attack people

[2010/04/13 13:29] Geneko Nemeth: (Although, I’m not qutie shure if that would be effective, since you could just change the client ID and evade the ban.)

[2010/04/13 13:29] Zarutian Morpork: Gavin: good question

[2010/04/13 13:29] Karen Palen: For example it appears that the infamous Neil is in Russia

[2010/04/13 13:30] Ceawlin Steamweaver: If you write something that can be proven malicious in court, the no warranty clause won’t hold anyway, so I don’t see why we have to have terms that prevent us from having our own no warranty clause just to protect from accidental bugs. <_ <

[2010/04/13 13:30] Lonely Bluebird: Neil is from Georgia lol

[2010/04/13 13:30] Mojito Sorbet: That is not a code change

[2010/04/13 13:30] Phausk Claven: uri

[2010/04/13 13:30] Geneko Nemeth loves lonely’s color

[2010/04/13 13:30] Dahlia Trimble: Angela, are you an attorney?

[2010/04/13 13:30] Lonely Bluebird: He’s just scared because I spoke to his daddy on the phone.

[2010/04/13 13:30] Aleric Inglewood shouts: help!

[2010/04/13 13:30] CPU Core: how many times have Linden Labs been taken to court specifically over their viewer?

[2010/04/13 13:30] Lonely Bluebird: 😮 Thank you Geneko

[2010/04/13 13:30] CPU Core: none at all?

[2010/04/13 13:30] Geneko Nemeth: What if I do inted it fo SL?

[2010/04/13 13:30] Fractured Crystal didn’t realize we were making that public info @ lonely

[2010/04/13 13:30] Aleric Inglewood: this hurts…

[2010/04/13 13:30] Fractured Crystal: o-o

[2010/04/13 13:30] Kyrah Abattoir: you’re still not responsible

[2010/04/13 13:30] Gavin Hird: but again, how is Linden lab going to be able to go after a developer that is outside the US?

[2010/04/13 13:30] Lonely Bluebird: It’s no secret o.o

[2010/04/13 13:30] JB Hancroft: Ok… enough. Have a great day 🙂

[2010/04/13 13:31] Da5id Kronfeld: There’s a big diffrence between malice and functionality

[2010/04/13 13:31] Fractured Crystal: i spose

[2010/04/13 13:31] Lonely Bluebird: I have no issue with people knowing that I talked to him.

[2010/04/13 13:31] Kyrah Abattoir: they won’t they will jsut bully him if he has assets in SL

[2010/04/13 13:31] Abriel Pleides: what needs to be distinguished is that people who create malicious viewers ON OURPOSE should be the ones held responisble as well as the users who use those malicious viewers

[2010/04/13 13:31] Da5id Kronfeld: but they overlap depending on context

[2010/04/13 13:31] Boroondas Gupte: would texas have been a big loss?

[2010/04/13 13:31] Karen Palen: It is on Neil’s blog so it is hardly “private”

[2010/04/13 13:31] Boroondas Gupte ducks

[2010/04/13 13:31] Mojito Sorbet: I worked for an employer who would not guarantee their software to control nuclear power plants

[2010/04/13 13:31] Morgaine Dinova: Can you please stop throwing the “malicious code” thing at TPV developers? It’s using the “Who will look after the chiildren?” argument.

[2010/04/13 13:31] Lonely Bluebird: Karen: Fractured was refering to the fact that I spoke to Neil’s father on the phone last week.

[2010/04/13 13:31] Rex Cronon: u stil couldn’t guarantee that your code is 100% free:)

[2010/04/13 13:32] Lonely Bluebird: The “russia” thing was just misinformation he posted when he realized that we had his personal information.

[2010/04/13 13:32] Zarutian Morpork: 100% free, gratis? libra? or free of bug?

[2010/04/13 13:32] Karen Palen: I understand – that is essentially what he says on his blog (less some machismo an dprofanity)

[2010/04/13 13:32] Fractured Crystal: o.o

[2010/04/13 13:32] Karen Palen: LOL

[2010/04/13 13:32] Abriel Pleides: well as a content creatos morgaine, people who create viewers with malicious code to be able to steal my content then yes i want those people held accountable for that

[2010/04/13 13:32] Lonely Bluebird: He is from Georgia.

[2010/04/13 13:33] Morgaine Dinova: Angela wants devs to accept liability, but is not willing to expose herself to that risk.

[2010/04/13 13:33] Dale Glass: say, why are we still on voice?

[2010/04/13 13:33] Dale Glass: could we switch here please?

[2010/04/13 13:33] Thickbrick Sleaford: Angela, I hope you can see that applying that to the open source development will elimnate that completly.

[2010/04/13 13:34] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Bugs happen. :<

[2010/04/13 13:34] Boroondas Gupte: but you don’t have the problem that you also have to trust your users not to abuse your code

[2010/04/13 13:34] CPU Core: you all speak about risk but what exactly is the risk.. i like numbers.. 1 in 1mil chance of you being sued?

[2010/04/13 13:34] Rex Cronon: voice is bad. it crashes people:(

[2010/04/13 13:34] Kyrah Abattoir: if you don’t distribute it how do you get reports?

[2010/04/13 13:34] Kyrah Abattoir: yeah that’s pretty hypocrite

[2010/04/13 13:34] Abriel Pleides: how did this turn into a finger pointing expedition

[2010/04/13 13:34] Lonely Bluebird: LLSD UDP EXPLOITS

[2010/04/13 13:34] Zarutian Morpork: Pardon Discrete Dreamscape?

[2010/04/13 13:34] Lonely Bluebird: o.o

[2010/04/13 13:34] Mojito Sorbet: Linden is not willing to guarantee their code. Why should we have to?

[2010/04/13 13:34] Fractured Crystal: xml virus

[2010/04/13 13:34] Gavin Hird: the problem is that most of the malicious code often originate from regiosn of the world where US law is not enforceable, so it does not give you any protection at all

[2010/04/13 13:35] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Lolol

[2010/04/13 13:35] Aeonix Aeon: It’s a very simple point here – It’s akin to being able to sue Mozilla for possible malicious uses of Firefox builds under open source. It doesn’t work like that, and you shouldn’t expect that anyone can actually force that through legalese

[2010/04/13 13:35] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Warrrrr

[2010/04/13 13:35] Morgaine Dinova: Whoever said “The point of the GPL is that you can distribute buggy code safely” is right, even though it’s not usually stated that way. It’s an essential protection.

[2010/04/13 13:35] Ceawlin Steamweaver: SLdome. :3

[2010/04/13 13:35] Ceawlin Steamweaver: Two hackers enter. Only one leaves. :3

[2010/04/13 13:35] Mojito Sorbet: Nobody else does either

[2010/04/13 13:35] Mojito Sorbet: right

[2010/04/13 13:35] Geneko Nemeth: All code are gubby.

[2010/04/13 13:35] Geneko Nemeth: *buggy

[2010/04/13 13:36] Mojito Sorbet: It weaskens your case in court to agree to two conflicting contracts

[2010/04/13 13:36] Zarutian Morpork: Crawlingin: the “AS IS” clause of nearly all software licenses conclift with that 7A clause of TPV policy

[2010/04/13 13:36] Rex Cronon: who has the squakee toy?

[2010/04/13 13:36] Krull Quar: Latif…No soup for you! 😛

[2010/04/13 13:36] Melfina Marshdevil: lonely :<

[2010/04/13 13:36] Honey Fairweather: “don’t agree to it” presupposes that we can; change it.

[2010/04/13 13:36] Honey Fairweather: *can’t

[2010/04/13 13:36] Lonely Bluebird: It’s not a squeaky too, it’s a meow. It happens when I jump.

[2010/04/13 13:36] Lonely Bluebird: toy*

[2010/04/13 13:36] Morgaine Dinova: Correct. The GPL provides “NO WARRANTY”.

[2010/04/13 13:36] Kyrah Abattoir: i jsut checked microsoft’s windows 7 eula, they also deny any liability on their code.

[2010/04/13 13:37] Zarutian Morpork: all software licencise have the “NO WARRANTY” clause

[2010/04/13 13:37] Mojito Sorbet: I think all TPVs should have a similar disclaimer.

[2010/04/13 13:37] Mojito Sorbet: Section 10.2 of the TOS

[2010/04/13 13:37] Boroondas Gupte: which snowglobe? parabuild builds or community builds?

[2010/04/13 13:38] Gareth: they already do…….

[2010/04/13 13:38] Gareth: the GPL

[2010/04/13 13:38] Kyrah Abattoir: but developpers do not connect to the grid, developpers make softwares, when you connect you are an use

[2010/04/13 13:38] Kyrah Abattoir: user

[2010/04/13 13:38] Vegas Silverweb: this is why I pointed out certifying kirsten’s s20 doesn’t make much sense – one person’s now responsible for all the code they’re repurposing from ll?

[2010/04/13 13:38] Kyrah Abattoir: so the tpv in essence should only cover users

[2010/04/13 13:38] Zarutian Morpork: not worth the risk with current oses today

[2010/04/13 13:38] Morgaine Dinova: It all comes down to whether Linden’s release of GPL license is valid or not. If it’s a valid license, then TPV developers are protected by the GPL “NO WARRANTY” clause, and the TPV is almost entirely meaningless where it mentions developers.

[2010/04/13 13:38] Zarutian Morpork: Morgaine: exactly

[2010/04/13 13:39] CPU Core: you had a chance today to get from a LL representative exactly what your not responsible for.. this can be used in court too 🙂

[2010/04/13 13:39] Gavin Hird: v 2-0 did

[2010/04/13 13:39] Mojito Sorbet: The driver is supposed to shut it down when it overheats

[2010/04/13 13:39] Kyrah Abattoir: yeah that’s why disk caching is for

[2010/04/13 13:40] Zarutian Morpork: Evan: ya in security software? ya looked at objcaps?

[2010/04/13 13:40] Morgaine Dinova: So it should say that.

[2010/04/13 13:40] Morgaine Dinova: The ToS is about banning. No TPV needed.

[2010/04/13 13:41] Morgaine Dinova: The TPV is useless for legal action, unless it invalidates the GPL.

[2010/04/13 13:41] Dzonatas Sol: People needs to back up their arguments with case law or it is all just heresay

[2010/04/13 13:42] Morgaine Dinova: Well that’s the issue, isn’t it! Big ambiguity!

[2010/04/13 13:42] Mojito Sorbet: true

[2010/04/13 13:42] Karen Palen: Is there any case law about this? How about on line payment systems which allow credit card fraud for example?

[2010/04/13 13:42] slowth: Dzonatas: No. My point has been that this ambiguity IS the problem.

[2010/04/13 13:42] Kyrah Abattoir: or an idiot

[2010/04/13 13:42] Mojito Sorbet: Yes

[2010/04/13 13:42] Mojito Sorbet: To connect

[2010/04/13 13:42] Morgaine Dinova: You can certainly waive your GPL rights. The vast majority of developers will stay well away from that craziness though.

[2010/04/13 13:43] Boroondas Gupte: to connect or to code something that connects

[2010/04/13 13:43] Fractured Crystal: im just saying its an important distinction that the TPVP isn’t “illegal”

[2010/04/13 13:43] Mojito Sorbet: WOuldnt whatever you signed last be the applicable constraint?

[2010/04/13 13:43] Morgaine Dinova: You’re not offering your software for money, it’s natural that you cannot offer warranty.

[2010/04/13 13:43] Kyrah Abattoir: yeah opensim is getting pretty nice 😀

[2010/04/13 13:43] Mojito Sorbet: sOME PEOPLE MAKE THEIR OWN GRIDS

[2010/04/13 13:44] Mojito Sorbet: oops

[2010/04/13 13:44] Karen Palen: Opensim will have similar problems as it develops though

[2010/04/13 13:44] Saijanai Kuhn is an ancient script kiddie of the highest water

[2010/04/13 13:44] Mojito Sorbet: Since Linden shows no interest in improving accessibility for the disabled

[2010/04/13 13:44] WhiteStar Magic: BUGS in SL ? U Kidding ?? LMAO

[2010/04/13 13:44] Saijanai Kuhn: there will be transcripts and probalby recordings also

[2010/04/13 13:44] Kyrah Abattoir: Yeah but hopefully each opensim grid will deal with it in a … less DUMB way

[2010/04/13 13:45] Boroondas Gupte: but if you’re (listed as) the creator, you aren’t necessairly the holder of all relevant copyrights

[2010/04/13 13:45] Kyrah Abattoir: i still have to remind you that there are SOME countries where copyright laws do not exist…

[2010/04/13 13:45] Karen Palen: I hope so, but experience suggests probably not. THinking of OPenLife for example

[2010/04/13 13:45] Dzonatas Sol: So we need to make uncopiable content…. not “not copy” yet content that simply can’t be copied straight forward. For example, an analog signal can’t be copied

[2010/04/13 13:46] Hydrogen2 Oxygen: lol

[2010/04/13 13:46] Kyrah Abattoir: wich is impossible Dzonatas

[2010/04/13 13:46] Zarutian Morpork: Dzonatas: like all DRM it is impossible

[2010/04/13 13:46] Geneko Nemeth: Analog signals can be copied too.

[2010/04/13 13:46] Kyrah Abattoir: computers work in precision

[2010/04/13 13:46] Morgaine Dinova: By the TPV, you could create GPL, BSD, or Creative Common licensed items (like Fleep creates for Education), and the TPV still denies you the right provided by those licences to copy that content.

[2010/04/13 13:46] Geneko Nemeth: It’s called the “analog hole”.

[2010/04/13 13:46] Kyrah Abattoir: and the music industry hates it

[2010/04/13 13:46] Mojito Sorbet: Test Client exists to test OpenSim servers. Nothing else

[2010/04/13 13:47] Geneko Nemeth: Mogaine: And deny your possibility to comply with that license.

[2010/04/13 13:47] Dzonatas Sol: It may seems impossible, but why should we prove how it is possible.

[2010/04/13 13:47] Morgaine Dinova: Geneko: yep

[2010/04/13 13:47] Karen Palen: Another angle is thta very little FOSS has a single developer, it is all about colaboration after all

[2010/04/13 13:47] Mojito Sorbet: Hope Joe brings back some proposed new wording next week

[2010/04/13 13:47] Zarutian Morpork: what are megapims?

[2010/04/13 13:48] Uni Ninetails: -_-

[2010/04/13 13:48] Mojito Sorbet: Bigger than 10x10x10m

[2010/04/13 13:48] Geneko Nemeth: Zarutian: Prims that are too large for SL’s physics engine to handle.

[2010/04/13 13:48] Kyrah Abattoir: they are technically covered by someone’s IP …

[2010/04/13 13:48] Karen Palen: I have made dozens of code contributions, but not one actually published in my name. So who is liable? THe project coordinator?

[2010/04/13 13:49] WhiteStar Magic: Full Sized prims are std 256x256x256

[2010/04/13 13:49] Dzonatas Sol: Real3D is not copiable.. lol

[2010/04/13 13:49] Kyrah Abattoir: megaprins are not related to scults

[2010/04/13 13:49] Dzonatas Sol: Real3D = circular polarization

[2010/04/13 13:49] Nyx Linden: full permissions does not mean export.

[2010/04/13 13:49] Boroondas Gupte: +Nyx

[2010/04/13 13:49] Mojito Sorbet: Not “RL permissions”

[2010/04/13 13:50] Electron Electricteeth: Why don’t we add a content-specific license tab to the build menu, where people can append a license to the object data?

[2010/04/13 13:50] Dzonatas Sol: so we need a clickable “export” permission

[2010/04/13 13:50] Mojito Sorbet: Or even if you had a letter form the creator

[2010/04/13 13:50] Kyrah Abattoir: yay here are my new prims CCBySA

[2010/04/13 13:50] Mojito Sorbet: Or taking it to another grid

[2010/04/13 13:51] Fractured Crystal: You must not use or provide any functionality that Linden Lab’s viewers do not have for exporting content from Second Life unless the functionality verifies that the content to be exported was created by the Second Life user who is using the Third-Party Viewer.

[2010/04/13 13:51] Boroondas Gupte: do you?

[2010/04/13 13:51] Morgaine Dinova: Correct, it’s the reimport that does the violation. The TPV is incorrect inreferring to export — another problem with the TPV.

[2010/04/13 13:52] Boroondas Gupte: you could be the creator, but someone else might have edited it and thus also hold a partial copyright ont he object.

[2010/04/13 13:52] Mojito Sorbet: No, the viewer needs to see thing thing to display it. Too late for the server to enforce it

[2010/04/13 13:52] Mojito Sorbet: Then it becomes a RL court case

[2010/04/13 13:52] Geneko Nemeth: Mojito++

[2010/04/13 13:52] Kyrah Abattoir: computers only have a binary view of “read” right on content, either you can read it (and copy it) or you can’t read it at all…

[2010/04/13 13:53] Fractured Crystal: its nboit about “can”

[2010/04/13 13:53] Fractured Crystal: not*

[2010/04/13 13:53] Zarutian Morpork: Hand!

[2010/04/13 13:53] Dzonatas Sol: The protocol doesn’t need to be modified to carry such export permissions data, there could be a entirely separate IO processes to access such information

[2010/04/13 13:53] Kyrah Abattoir: anybody who tells you defferent is a fool or trying to sell you drms

[2010/04/13 13:53] Morgaine Dinova: Export happens BY DESIGN of the platform — the sim send that content perfectly legally to the viewer, and it’s saved to drive totally legally. It doesn’t become an issue until it’s uploaded to SL as a copy.

[2010/04/13 13:53] Fractured Crystal: <3 drm

[2010/04/13 13:53] Zarutian Morpork: Fractured: drm doesnt work

[2010/04/13 13:54] Kyrah Abattoir: they only work on an ignorant user

[2010/04/13 13:54] Fractured Crystal: it works better than nothing at all

[2010/04/13 13:54] Geneko Nemeth: That’s why it’s better to keep the user morons. :p

[2010/04/13 13:54] Kyrah Abattoir: i don’t like making shoddy things, i rather not do something if it can’t be done perfectly

[2010/04/13 13:54] Leaf: Ahh, still thunderdoming, I see. XD

[2010/04/13 13:54] Fractured Crystal: SL would not be as successful as it is today without digital rights management in the form of copy/mod/trans

[2010/04/13 13:55] Kyrah Abattoir: would it be dwindling like now too?

[2010/04/13 13:55] Dale Glass: that’s not DRM, that’s just permissions

[2010/04/13 13:55] Morgaine Dinova: Fractured: there’s no difference at all. They could use the same format.

[2010/04/13 13:55] Dale Glass: same like on a linux box you have r/w/x permissions

[2010/04/13 13:55] Mojito Sorbet: The cache is in somewhat obfuscated format to make it less easy to steal

[2010/04/13 13:55] Discrete Dreamscape: Permissions ARE DRM. :p

[2010/04/13 13:55] Fractured Crystal: dale, how is permissions not DRM

[2010/04/13 13:55] Lonely Bluebird: Permissions in SL are a form of DRM.

[2010/04/13 13:55] Karen Palen: We do need to distinguish the SLL DRM from actual copyright htough. The DRM is merely a tool!

[2010/04/13 13:55] Rex Cronon: what dae?

[2010/04/13 13:55] Rex Cronon: dale*

[2010/04/13 13:56] CPU Core: An example of one of these “viral licenses” is the GNU General Public License, which is often applied to computer programs. The viral nature of these licenses are seen as applying the ideology of the original licensor on subsequent redistributors. The criticism stems over a disagreement over the scope of freedom that licenses should attempt to enforce. That is whether licenses should aim to provide absolute freedom (to do whatever you please) versus an inalienable freedom (freedom to do anything but take aw

[2010/04/13 13:56] Karen Palen: As people hav epointed out the perms only approximate the actual copyright license

[2010/04/13 13:56] Morgaine Dinova: Permissions have nothing to do with DRM. DRM is a means of restricting access that is sent along with the item being protected. Permissions are not sent, they’re server-side.

[2010/04/13 13:56] Dzonatas Sol: Digital Rights Media… not just Digital Rights

[2010/04/13 13:56] CPU Core: away the freedom of another).

[2010/04/13 13:56] Geneko Nemeth: Permissions are sent.

[2010/04/13 13:56] Zarutian Morpork: Digital Restriction Managemnt

[2010/04/13 13:56] Dale Glass: DRM as I see it runs on your own system. Your own computer tries to prevent yourself from doing something to your own DVD that’s playing on your own hardware

[2010/04/13 13:56] Rex Cronon: permission r sent:)

[2010/04/13 13:56] Geneko Nemeth: Although, they are enfoced at server side.

[2010/04/13 13:56] xstorm Radek: OMG!! Tech is Evil

[2010/04/13 13:56] Fractured Crystal: i thought digital rights management was anything that managed digital rights

[2010/04/13 13:57] Kyrah Abattoir: wich is silly because ultimately your computer is designed to obey you

[2010/04/13 13:57] Fractured Crystal: perhaps i misunderstood the acronym

[2010/04/13 13:57] Geneko Nemeth: Thanks Dale!

[2010/04/13 13:57] Morgaine Dinova: Just informational client-side.

[2010/04/13 13:57] Dale Glass: permissions like in SL only work so long you can’t mess with the grid. If you run OpenSim you can ignore permissions on your own sim entirely

[2010/04/13 13:57] Geneko Nemeth: Kyah: Not with proprietary software.

[2010/04/13 13:57] Kyrah Abattoir: you can modify proprietary softwares

[2010/04/13 13:57] Boroondas Gupte: I use torrents to download linux live CDs.

[2010/04/13 13:57] xstorm Radek: im so glad i do not do that

[2010/04/13 13:57] Lonely Bluebird: TORRENTS

[2010/04/13 13:57] Lonely Bluebird: EVIL

[2010/04/13 13:57] Geneko Nemeth: No you can’t. It only obeys you when it’s convienent.

[2010/04/13 13:57] Kyrah Abattoir: or cracks, and packet injection and memory modifications wouldn’t work

[2010/04/13 13:57] Fractured Crystal: HACKER

[2010/04/13 13:57] Leaf: I like cake. :3

[2010/04/13 13:57] Napolean Marama: OH GOD

[2010/04/13 13:57] CrawlingIn Meskin: I also use torrents to download adult films

[2010/04/13 13:57] Dzonatas Sol: DRM: Digital Rights Media, where the copy-protection is prart of the medium itself and not just the content

[2010/04/13 13:57] Govern Overland: Yes torrents are evil.. Usenet for the win.

[2010/04/13 13:57] Zarutian Morpork: HAND!

[2010/04/13 13:57] Morgaine Dinova: There is no attempt to restrict access to the data that sims send (by design) to the client. There is no DRM, and LL has specifically stated that they do not advocated DRM.

[2010/04/13 13:58] Melfina: torrents <3

[2010/04/13 13:58] Leaf: Can they hear me, or is this just oneway? >_>

[2010/04/13 13:58] Fractured Crystal: the first result for http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=drm refers to management

[2010/04/13 13:58] Geneko Nemeth: LL has also specifically stated that “get a first life” is fair use.

[2010/04/13 13:58] Lonely Bluebird: We can hear you Leaf.

[2010/04/13 13:58] Melfina: they can hear you

[2010/04/13 13:58] Fractured Crystal: dunno

[2010/04/13 13:58] Leaf badmouths some people. =:O

[2010/04/13 13:58] Leaf: XD

[2010/04/13 13:58] Melfina Marshdevil: [13:58:16] Leaf: Can they hear me, or is this just oneway? >_>

[2010/04/13 13:58] Fractured Crystal: hey ceawlin

[2010/04/13 13:58] WhiteStar Magic: The irony is, taht if you want to export a build which contains a Mega prim made by MOy Loon , you can’t because of OEN prim that you did not create that one

[2010/04/13 13:58] Geneko Nemeth: But now they are persueing devs who make stuff like Second ____ or ____ Life.

[2010/04/13 13:58] Fractured Crystal: that was a bit silly

[2010/04/13 13:58] xstorm Radek: Moy Loon is a god no say his name

[2010/04/13 13:59] Leaf: I wanted to make a viewer called GettaLife. :< [2010/04/13 13:59] Lonely Bluebird: Moy is hot.

[2010/04/13 13:59] Discrete Dreamscape has a jailbroken iPhone.

[2010/04/13 13:59] Geneko Nemeth has a Jailbroken Wii.

[2010/04/13 13:59] xstorm Radek: lol

[2010/04/13 13:59] CrawlingIn Meskin has a jailbroken calculator

[2010/04/13 13:59] Lonely Bluebird has a jailbroken SL client?

[2010/04/13 13:59] Fractured Crystal has a motorola RAZR with a broken screen

[2010/04/13 13:59] Govern Overland: iphone phooey… . Blackberry Storm for the win 😛

[2010/04/13 13:59] Melfina Marshdevil: jailbroken iphones allow you to do everything :<

[2010/04/13 13:59] Leaf has a jailbroken abacus. :3

[2010/04/13 13:59] Boroondas Gupte: lol

[2010/04/13 13:59] Dzonatas Sol: Software based DRM = Digital Restriction Management — Hardware based = Digital Rights Medium… there is a difference even if the ambiguously the same ancronym

[2010/04/13 13:59] Napolean Marama: Oh god I cracked a program look at the huge chip in it

[2010/04/13 14:00] Mojito Sorbet: You can buff that out

[2010/04/13 14:00] Karen Palen: You get to keep both parts LOL

[2010/04/13 14:00] Discrete Dreamscape wants a HTC Evo. :<

[2010/04/13 14:00] Geneko Nemeth is too afraid breaking stuff to change the region settings though.

[2010/04/13 14:00] Dale Glass: for me, the primary thing is having control of my stuff. Anything like the iphone is completely out and unacceptable

[2010/04/13 14:00] Kyrah Abattoir: DRM are silly, hell you can strip drms from ebooks with 100 lines of python…

[2010/04/13 14:00] Kyrah Abattoir: and now i ask, what if you refuse to apply? do youg et placed on a “viewer watch list” ?

[2010/04/13 14:01] Kyrah Abattoir: yeha i know but i mean unofficially

[2010/04/13 14:01] Mojito Sorbet: They say it is optional “currently”

[2010/04/13 14:01] Kyrah Abattoir: are all the non approved viewer seen suspiciously?

[2010/04/13 14:02] Fractured Crystal: http://viewerdirectory.secondlife.com/

[2010/04/13 14:02] Kyrah Abattoir: i should make my own viewer and give it an ident string like “Mysteriously evil Viewer”

[2010/04/13 14:02] Leaf: Totally.

[2010/04/13 14:02] Mojito Sorbet: today

[2010/04/13 14:02] Zarutian Morpork: so should objects and their prims, assets and such have an license field?

[2010/04/13 14:03] Morgaine Dinova: There are plenty of TPV developers who cannot possibly supply their RL names, like Marine for example, yet they are entirely good citizens.

[2010/04/13 14:03] Dale Glass: I’d like a license field, yes

[2010/04/13 14:03] Boroondas Gupte: it did display RL info and doesn’t now … but won’t it in the future?

[2010/04/13 14:03] Kyrah Abattoir: yeah, or me -_-

[2010/04/13 14:03] Dale Glass: something that’d allow me to specify that it’s specifically allowed to export my stuff, for instance

[2010/04/13 14:03] Zarutian Morpork: for example “This prim and content is under CC and GPL”

[2010/04/13 14:03] CrawlingIn Meskin: bbl, tacos

[2010/04/13 14:03] Kyrah Abattoir: i take great care to erase my traces online -_-

[2010/04/13 14:03] Dzonatas Sol: taco tuesday

[2010/04/13 14:03] Kyrah Abattoir: because she has a job to keep

[2010/04/13 14:04] Mojito Sorbet: Marine’s software is not your typical viewer…

[2010/04/13 14:04] Leaf: Hm, I want noms too. Bai. :3

[2010/04/13 14:04] Kyrah Abattoir: well i think most peoples who develop RLV viewers wouldn’t like their bosses to know what are their kinks

[2010/04/13 14:04] Mojito Sorbet: Or their school board

[2010/04/13 14:04] Morgaine Dinova: She can’t (as a very good example), because her sexual preferences are of nobody’s concern but her own. She could lose her job owing the RLV feature.

[2010/04/13 14:05] Zarutian Morpork: “True Names”?

[2010/04/13 14:05] Uni Ninetails nods

[2010/04/13 14:05] Dzonatas Sol: Looks like we are done with the issues here

[2010/04/13 14:06] Kyrah Abattoir: i don’t think so

[2010/04/13 14:06] Morgaine Dinova: Absolutely not

[2010/04/13 14:06] Mojito Sorbet: No they shouldnt

[2010/04/13 14:06] Morgaine Dinova: You would be supporting blackmail.

[2010/04/13 14:06] Kyrah Abattoir: they should be able to contact you sure, but itsnot their business to know your RL infos

[2010/04/13 14:06] Mojito Sorbet: My employer will not release the names of all theior employees, though our software is used by thousands of companies around the world.

[2010/04/13 14:07] Mojito Sorbet: yes

[2010/04/13 14:07] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, but not MY contact info

[2010/04/13 14:07] Mojito Sorbet: But the name is public information

[2010/04/13 14:07] Mojito Sorbet: But the association of names is public info

[2010/04/13 14:07] Kyrah Abattoir: GPL –> not liable

[2010/04/13 14:07] Melfina Marshdevil: (random) :< we are the pixel cats of SL

[2010/04/13 14:08] Mojito Sorbet: That does not help Marine’s case

[2010/04/13 14:08] Latif Khalifa: libopenmetaverse is released by Open Metaverse Foundation which is a 501c3 non-profift corporation

[2010/04/13 14:08] Morgaine Dinova: Registering a company name is a tiny part of the cost. You have a huge raft of other costs, including yearly official audits, IRS involvement, and other things.

[2010/04/13 14:09] Zarutian Morpork: Morgaine: exactly

[2010/04/13 14:09] Geneko Nemeth: Ae they the same thing?

[2010/04/13 14:09] Karen Palen: That is what an LLC is for!

[2010/04/13 14:09] Lonely Bluebird: You’re not required to do any of that if your company has no gross income, which it would not if it was only used to register a viewer.

[2010/04/13 14:09] Karen Palen: Most of that cost is th etax exempt status

[2010/04/13 14:09] Karen Palen: YUP

[2010/04/13 14:09] Mojito Sorbet: It still does not keep your name secret

[2010/04/13 14:09] Zarutian Morpork: and it isnt as easy to register LLC comp in other countries

[2010/04/13 14:09] Morgaine Dinova: “Responsible” doesn’t mean anything, unless it’s expressed.

[2010/04/13 14:10] Kyrah Abattoir: it’s all about balance, by accepting the tpv we put ourselve in an inferiority position, it cotnradict the notion of each side of a contract being equal

[2010/04/13 14:10] Karen Palen: Most countries have some mechanism like that. The LLC originated in EU I think

[2010/04/13 14:10] Morgaine Dinova: It’s a wildcard.

[2010/04/13 14:10] Mojito Sorbet: My coffee is cold. The author of this viewer I am using is responsible.

[2010/04/13 14:10] Zarutian Morpork: Kyrah: and even accepting the tpv via click it isnt binding in the country I live in unless you have signed a statement that it is

[2010/04/13 14:11] Zarutian Morpork: Mojito: hah

[2010/04/13 14:11] Bronson Blackadder: lol

[2010/04/13 14:11] Mojito Sorbet: I started using this program, and THEN my coffee got cold. It has to be their faulot

[2010/04/13 14:11] Uni Ninetails: First case of a lawsuit for cold coffee not hot huh?

[2010/04/13 14:11] Kyrah Abattoir: I really need to get into the weapon business , it’s becoming elss risky than programming 😀

[2010/04/13 14:11] Zarutian Morpork: when it has gotten to court it is already too late

[2010/04/13 14:12] Zarutian Morpork: as court costs might just bankrupt you or degrade your standing

[2010/04/13 14:12] Zarutian Morpork: with you landlord or employer

[2010/04/13 14:13] Morgaine Dinova: There is no need for a TPV to make developers responsible for malicious code. The GPL always limits “NO WARRANTY” that way, “subject to applicable law”.

[2010/04/13 14:13] Mojito Sorbet: Just put the GPL right up front.

[2010/04/13 14:13] Zarutian Morpork: the “NO WARRANTY” is standard part of mostly all software licenses

[2010/04/13 14:13] Karen Palen: NOTHING will protect you if you are deliberately malicious!

[2010/04/13 14:14] Karen Palen: Corps, LLCs and insurance are for screwups not deliberate attacks!

[2010/04/13 14:14] Mojito Sorbet: 7c is sufficient

[2010/04/13 14:14] Kyrah Abattoir: wich then only apply to users

[2010/04/13 14:14] Zarutian Morpork: Karen: tell that to the patent trolls and..

[2010/04/13 14:14] Karen Palen: A virus is clearly malicious intent IMHO

[2010/04/13 14:14] Zarutian Morpork: Karen: ..the prospective invoicers

[2010/04/13 14:15] Morgaine Dinova: If they want that, they should state “Developers of the GPL code waive their GPL NO WARRANTY protection by accepting the TPV.”

[2010/04/13 14:15] Mojito Sorbet: Has an exploit

[2010/04/13 14:15] Zarutian Morpork: Karen: I can send you a code that is so obfusicated that you cant tell what it will do

[2010/04/13 14:15] Mojito Sorbet: A bug that leaves a security hole

[2010/04/13 14:15] Karen Palen: certainly you can – your point is?

[2010/04/13 14:15] Morgaine Dinova: According to Joe, all LL want to do is protect against malicious code. That’s very different!

[2010/04/13 14:15] Karen Palen: If it is actually a virus then nothing will protect you

[2010/04/13 14:15] Kyrah Abattoir: we can’t assume their kindness and good will

[2010/04/13 14:16] Karen Palen: from lawsuits/prosecution etc.

[2010/04/13 14:16] Zarutian Morpork: Karen: see a paper called “Eniromental key generation towards clueless software agents” to see how it could be done

[2010/04/13 14:16] Dale Glass: it has to be specifically spelled out in the agreement

[2010/04/13 14:16] Karen Palen: no matter how well hidden, if it is delberately destrucyive code then the author is responsible!

[2010/04/13 14:17] Dale Glass: besides, they don’t even need a TOS for that kind of thing. If you’re intentionally crashing a sim that’s probably against a law pretty much in every country. “We can ban anybody for any reason” + whatever law applies should be more than enough to take care of it

[2010/04/13 14:17] Karen Palen: Viruses and trojans are one example – usually very well hidden!

[2010/04/13 14:17] Morgaine Dinova: It DOES say that!

[2010/04/13 14:18] Karen Palen: there are (too few) idiots now in jail for writing viruses

[2010/04/13 14:18] Discrete Dreamscape: Hopefully they’ll revise that statement to make it obvious that it’s an agreement between you and LL, not you and downstream users. But either way, I think that’s obvious.

[2010/04/13 14:18] Zarutian Morpork: Karen: also many propertary code that is been obfusicated to try to prevent reverse engineering or change

[2010/04/13 14:18] Morgaine Dinova: Angela: that’s no excuse for a crap document. We’re trying to improve it here. Don’t defend a bad document because “everyone does that”.

[2010/04/13 14:18] Fractured Crystal: oh murr

[2010/04/13 14:18] Discrete Dreamscape: Morgaine does have a point, it should be more specific about the parties involved in the agreement.

[2010/04/13 14:19] Zarutian Morpork: One company I know of ditributes code and is liable for it: Boing for avionics software

[2010/04/13 14:19] Dale Glass: Angela: Release something, subject yourself to the TPV agreement, and I’ll take you a lot more seriously

[2010/04/13 14:19] Karen Palen: yes I agree you can hide things quite well (although not as well as many like to think), thta does not alter my point – if it can be shown thta the intent of the code was to do harm then no disclaimers, warranties, agreements, LLCs or anything else will protect you!

[2010/04/13 14:20] Lonely Bluebird: The problem is “intent”

[2010/04/13 14:20] Lonely Bluebird: You cannot prove intent.

[2010/04/13 14:20] Nimh: test

[2010/04/13 14:20] Zarutian Morpork: intent is impossible to prove

[2010/04/13 14:20] Karen Palen: “intent” is reuired in every criminal case – there are well established ways to show thta intent

[2010/04/13 14:20] Lonely Bluebird: I can make a tool that allows you to export any content and say it was for backup purposes, and my claim could be entirely legitimate.

[2010/04/13 14:20] Zarutian Morpork: Nimh: test passed

[2010/04/13 14:20] Uni Ninetails: Lot of stuff picked up on ty folks i better get on. Have a good day!

[2010/04/13 14:20] Nimh: ty

[2010/04/13 14:21] Lonely Bluebird: “Intent” cannot be proven by looking at code.

[2010/04/13 14:21] Zarutian Morpork: Lonely: exactly

[2010/04/13 14:21] Fractured Crystal: depends how well they comment the code ;P

[2010/04/13 14:21] Discrete Dreamscape: Lonely, that is rather optimistic thinking. :<

[2010/04/13 14:21] Karen Palen: sure there are dual uses, but that becomes a problem of detection and proof

[2010/04/13 14:21] Fractured Crystal: this should destroy the power grid in the united states

[2010/04/13 14:21] Govern Overland: Or IT.. lets not discriminate.

[2010/04/13 14:21] Fractured Crystal: ffff //this should destroy the power grid in the united states

[2010/04/13 14:21] Discrete Dreamscape: ;p

[2010/04/13 14:21] Fractured Crystal: iyt ate my //

[2010/04/13 14:22] Mojito Sorbet: A Contract can not contradict a law

[2010/04/13 14:22] Kyrah Abattoir: well it’s only valid in usa

[2010/04/13 14:22] Mojito Sorbet: A contract that violates a law can not be upheld

[2010/04/13 14:22] Kyrah Abattoir: you won’t get an extradition demand for that XD

[2010/04/13 14:22] Karen Palen: that is a normal part of criminal law though – not somehting I know in great detail I hasten to add. Even if I did have luch with a prosecutor 🙂

[2010/04/13 14:23] Karen Palen: lunch

[2010/04/13 14:23] Mojito Sorbet: Violation of the TOS is one thing. Breaking the law is separate. Even if for the sam eincident

[2010/04/13 14:24] Karen Palen: the details differ, bbut you will find that the laws almost everywhere are much the same if you try to harm soemone – even in a virtual world

[2010/04/13 14:24] Mojito Sorbet: You can be convicted for the same act though

[2010/04/13 14:24] Discrete Dreamscape: Being convictec of anything for violating ToS is not always a certainty.

[2010/04/13 14:24] Zarutian Morpork: for instance: click through agreements arent leagal in the country I live in

[2010/04/13 14:24] Discrete Dreamscape: Yeah, specific terms are important.

[2010/04/13 14:25] Karen Palen: a TOS is just a form of contract, I am talking about a deliberate malicious act – like writing and distributing a virus

[2010/04/13 14:25] Lonely Bluebird: Karen: You don’t have to perform a deliberate malicious act to cause damage to Second Life

[2010/04/13 14:25] Karen Palen: THAT will bring you grief just about everywhere

[2010/04/13 14:26] Morgaine Dinova: Almost all of this discussion could be avoided if the TPV stated unambiguously “All terms of the GPL apply also to TPVs developed and distributed for SL. Malicious viewers that are illegal under applicable law are not protected by NO WARRANTY of the GPL, and become covered by this TPV agreement.”

[2010/04/13 14:26] Fractured Crystal: that virus was a accident, i just made a bitwise typo

[2010/04/13 14:26] Morgaine Dinova: Agreed

[2010/04/13 14:26] Vegas Silverweb: I have a couple points…

[2010/04/13 14:26] Karen Palen: True, but even LL distingushes between a screup (bug) and introducing a virus for example

[2010/04/13 14:26] Lonely Bluebird: Yes but again, “Intent” cannot be proven.

[2010/04/13 14:26] Vegas Silverweb: if I’m paying for a sim here, shouldn’t I be able to connect to it with whatever the hell I want that doesn’t violate community standards?

[2010/04/13 14:26] Fractured Crystal: it was a bitwise typo 😐

[2010/04/13 14:27] Karen Palen: jails all over the world are full of people with excuses like that!

[2010/04/13 14:27] Zarutian Morpork: Fractured: that is possible in malbonge and bf but not in other programming languages

[2010/04/13 14:27] Fractured Crystal: that was a inside joke

[2010/04/13 14:27] Zarutian Morpork: (o well perhaps perl)

[2010/04/13 14:27] Morgaine Dinova: Try this folks, it meets Joe’s requirement and it meets GPL developers too — “All terms of the GPL apply also to TPVs developed and distributed for use in SL. Malicious viewers that are illegal under applicable law are not protected by the NO WARRANTY of the GPL, and become covered by this TPV agreement.”

[2010/04/13 14:27] Fractured Crystal: we had a complaint from someone who claimed that removing permission checks in their viewer was just a “bitwise typo”

[2010/04/13 14:27] Karen Palen: Only in APL can you destroy th eowrld in one line of code though

[2010/04/13 14:27] Kyrah Abattoir: the underside of the stage is plywood…

[2010/04/13 14:28] Karen Palen: like I said jails are full of excuses like that lol

[2010/04/13 14:28] Discrete Dreamscape: Morgaine, there still needs to be a change about the contract that is the TPVp being between you and LL, not you and your users.

[2010/04/13 14:28] Karen Palen: I agree

[2010/04/13 14:28] Vegas Silverweb: and how can ll release something under the gpl (snowglobe), and then try to impose additional restrictions on the distribution of it?

[2010/04/13 14:28] Kyrah Abattoir: well it’s a FALSe becimlign a TRUE

[2010/04/13 14:29] Kyrah Abattoir: it can happen -_-

[2010/04/13 14:29] Karen Palen: and two people can have the same DNA ….

[2010/04/13 14:29] Karen Palen: it is all a matter of probability

[2010/04/13 14:29] Discrete Dreamscape: Vegas, they don’t. You basically AGREE to give up your no warranty protection from LL (not end-users) by agreeing to the TPVp.

[2010/04/13 14:29] Fractured Crystal: they are master hackers vegas

[2010/04/13 14:29] Morgaine Dinova: Discrete: I agree. It really does need to be limited to LL

[2010/04/13 14:29] Discrete Dreamscape: But there are no restrictions on distribution.

[2010/04/13 14:30] Vegas Silverweb: ?

[2010/04/13 14:30] Vegas Silverweb: if I change sg so it’s not tpv-compliant, I’m not supposed to distribute it.

[2010/04/13 14:30] Discrete Dreamscape: They are not placing restrictions on distribution, but they MAY ban your SL account or block your viewers, etc.

[2010/04/13 14:30] Angela Talamasca: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1030.html

[2010/04/13 14:30] Zarutian Morpork: LL mighnt go after you but others might

[2010/04/13 14:30] Dale Glass: the voice stream on byteme seems to have ended

[2010/04/13 14:31] Zarutian Morpork: you could be banned

[2010/04/13 14:31] Vegas Silverweb: how can they change the gpl just because I logged into sl?

[2010/04/13 14:31] Geneko Nemeth: Yay Imprudence!

[2010/04/13 14:31] Zarutian Morpork: but you might just be disconnected for that session

[2010/04/13 14:31] Zarutian Morpork: Dale: it has

[2010/04/13 14:32] Kyrah Abattoir: i’m jsut wondering, but isn’t the opensource viewer repo having the official viewer sig on it by default?

[2010/04/13 14:32] Morgaine Dinova: Lonely: absolutely. And nobody is worried about LL going after them for anything non-malicious. The problem is that the TPV opens you up to all your users — there could be hundreds of thousands of them, many of them litigious.

[2010/04/13 14:32] Geneko Nemeth is still recording

[2010/04/13 14:32] Kyrah Abattoir: so if you compile it out of the box doesn’t it simply behave like the real one?

[2010/04/13 14:32] Dale Glass: ok, then I can no longer hear what’s going on

[2010/04/13 14:32] Vegas Silverweb: sg id’s as sg

[2010/04/13 14:32] Karen Palen: Angela – note the words “deliberately” and “intnetionally” all over that document. There are accepted standards for proving that. Much the same in other countries too although the procedures are very different

[2010/04/13 14:32] Vegas Silverweb: the issue is sg’s license is gpl

[2010/04/13 14:33] Zarutian Morpork: Latif: you are clipping a bit

[2010/04/13 14:33] Vegas Silverweb: gpl doesn’t say “all this null and void if you log into sl”

[2010/04/13 14:33] Discrete Dreamscape: Morgaine, have everyone, in polite terms, make it obvious exactly what change should be made to make this clear. Maybe we’ll have sufficient input for next week to do something about it.

[2010/04/13 14:33] Karen Palen: Discrete – yes I htink some draft text would be very helpful

[2010/04/13 14:33] Zarutian Morpork: fingerprinting

[2010/04/13 14:33] Zarutian Morpork: ?

[2010/04/13 14:34] Discrete Dreamscape: Karen, there are virtually none of those words.

[2010/04/13 14:34] Discrete Dreamscape: Go examine it.

[2010/04/13 14:34] Kyrah Abattoir: well if all your viewer is doing passive capture, even through a man in the middle type, would be enough

[2010/04/13 14:34] Vegas Silverweb: none of that matters, sg is released under the gpl, the gpl doesn’t allow any restrictions on distribution

[2010/04/13 14:34] Geneko Nemeth: [transcript] factured: depends on how much you’re exporting,

[2010/04/13 14:34] Discrete Dreamscape: Although I’m not too worried about the agreement with LL, so..

[2010/04/13 14:34] Dale Glass: IMO, the TPV is not very relevant to the people who really are planning to do something malicious. I mean if I was going to steal passwords, I’d make sure to do everything through for instance an open wifi access point.

[2010/04/13 14:35] Morgaine Dinova: The problem doesn’t happen on export anyway, only on import.

[2010/04/13 14:35] Kyrah Abattoir: throttle it then

[2010/04/13 14:35] Karen Palen: Discrete, I see those words at the start of each section a(1,4) “knowingly” (2,3)intentionally

[2010/04/13 14:35] Zarutian Morpork: what about export systems that use just the sl cache?

[2010/04/13 14:35] Karen Palen: for example

[2010/04/13 14:35] Geneko Nemeth: [transcript]Lonely: I haven’t seen any viewer that can be tellold to be exporting based on the rates

[2010/04/13 14:36] Morgaine Dinova: It’s trivial to randomize your requests to avoid detection. It will become an arms race.

[2010/04/13 14:36] Geneko Nemeth: … nah, I can’t do this. :<

[2010/04/13 14:36] Geneko Nemeth: Lonely – the problem of blocking viewers is they will push devs into evading them

[2010/04/13 14:37] Vegas Silverweb: is there anybody who owns a sim who doesn’t use emerald?

[2010/04/13 14:37] Discrete Dreamscape: brb

[2010/04/13 14:37] Karen Palen: Kyrah – people seem to forget that the first copybot (ca 2006) was a “proxy” thta captured the data stream! NO modification of th eviewer required!

[2010/04/13 14:37] Zarutian Morpork: I dont own a sim but what is emerald?

[2010/04/13 14:38] Kyrah Abattoir: yeah

[2010/04/13 14:38] Karen Palen: Emeral is one enhanced viewer that has become popular]

[2010/04/13 14:38] Latha Serevi: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/JoeLindenTPVBrownbag-2010-04-13

[2010/04/13 14:38] Govern Overland: Emerald makes your boobs jiggle.

[2010/04/13 14:38] Vegas Silverweb: basically anybody who owns a sim uses emerald, mostly for the radar, so you have some awareness of what’s going on in your sim

[2010/04/13 14:38] Kyrah Abattoir: and making an sl proxy is real easy, back in the old days i was using it to have my chat log in a different window (convenient on dual screen)

[2010/04/13 14:38] Zarutian Morpork: so a transparent proxy that listens to the sl datastreams could copy all the stuff in the sim that the user enters?

[2010/04/13 14:39] Kyrah Abattoir: yep

[2010/04/13 14:39] Karen Palen: Essentially it is just Wireshark with a fancy analyzer. Well maybe a LITTLE more than that LOL

[2010/04/13 14:39] Karen Palen: Thank you Latha!

[2010/04/13 14:39] Morgaine Dinova: I don’t think people quite realize the magnitude of the problem. A malicious developer could hack Snowglobe with all the bad stuff they wish, and that’s arguably not even a detectable TPV, even though modification legally makes Snowglobe a TPV.

[2010/04/13 14:40] Kyrah Abattoir: well there is a reason why web browsers are completely devoid of drms, even today in our very copyrighted world.

[2010/04/13 14:40] Morgaine Dinova: Of course Lonely, but it appears as a pure Snowglobe!

[2010/04/13 14:40] Latha Serevi: One of my least favorite parts of Joe’s presentation was the “not gonna tell you our tricks for detecting…” when such is clearly impossible.

[2010/04/13 14:41] Latif Khalifa: yeah

[2010/04/13 14:41] Vegas Silverweb: It seems everybody I’ve run across who owns a sim is using emerald

[2010/04/13 14:41] Kyrah Abattoir: so because it will “reduce” the itch instead of cure it it’s fine?

[2010/04/13 14:41] Latif Khalifa: Latha, but perhaps he believs it’s possible, dunno how technical he is

[2010/04/13 14:41] Discrete Dreamscape: Back. 😮

[2010/04/13 14:42] Zarutian Morpork: well my L$ balance has been 0 for very long now

[2010/04/13 14:42] Geneko Nemeth: DMCA/

[2010/04/13 14:42] Nyx Linden: we have people working on that

[2010/04/13 14:42] Geneko Nemeth: Not DCMA.

[2010/04/13 14:42] Geneko Nemeth: Digital Millemum Copyright Act takedown process.

[2010/04/13 14:42] Zarutian Morpork: I dont have a Credit Card and I dont know if LL accept SWIFT banktransfers

[2010/04/13 14:42] Geneko Nemeth: Millenium, even?

[2010/04/13 14:43] Kyrah Abattoir: you mean like uploading unverified bytecode? 😀

[2010/04/13 14:44] Morgaine Dinova: I know this discussion is entirely about SL. But if you know about the work being done on interop, you’ll realize how pointless this discussion really is 🙂

[2010/04/13 14:44] Zarutian Morpork: I know how to make an self replicating objects in SL but I wont

[2010/04/13 14:46] Discrete Dreamscape: Not that hard. :>

[2010/04/13 14:47] Morgaine Dinova: Plenty of 800m high trees in Opensim worlds

[2010/04/13 14:47] Latif Khalifa: i’m out of here, take care you all

[2010/04/13 14:47] Discrete Dreamscape: See ya.

[2010/04/13 14:47] Zarutian Morpork: bye

[2010/04/13 14:47] Morgaine Dinova: Aye, very retro here

[2010/04/13 14:48] Nimh: How do you register you nick and link you SL name with Quickfox IRC?

[2010/04/13 14:48] Zarutian Morpork: Nimh: SL- nicks are the people on the meeting splace

[2010/04/13 14:49] Morgaine Dinova: BM is irrelevant here anyway, since BM don’t have a GPL licensed viewer, so there’s no “NO WARRANTY” policy for developers.

[2010/04/13 14:50] Dale Glass: what is BM, sorry?

[2010/04/13 14:50] LathaSerevi: Nimh, this isn’t an ongoing thing, really, just a place to set up a bridge for the occasional meeting. But on the IRC side …. [oh, Nimh left, nvm]

[2010/04/13 14:50] Nyx Linden is not aware what the publicity of that information is

[2010/04/13 14:50] Discrete Dreamscape: Blue Mars

[2010/04/13 14:50] Morgaine Dinova: It’s entirely public information, it’s in the Snowglobe source code.

[2010/04/13 14:50] Dale Glass: ahh\

[2010/04/13 14:51] Karen Palen: Remember that There.comoperated in a similar way to Blue Mars!

[2010/04/13 14:52] Kyrah Abattoir: “cover your heads the trees are coming!” sort of thing?

[2010/04/13 14:52] Discrete Dreamscape is heading home..

[2010/04/13 14:52] Discrete Dreamscape: See ya later.

[2010/04/13 14:52] Angela Talamasca: laters

[2010/04/13 14:52] Fractured Crystal: cya

[2010/04/13 14:52] Karen Palen: There are definite limits to what you can do to prevent content theft

[2010/04/13 14:52] Morgaine Dinova: Look, the objects are defined by the incoming data in the protocol. The viewer can only work on the basis of what’s defined in that data, so there is nothing secret about it.

[2010/04/13 14:53] Morgaine Dinova: We don’t know anything about SERVER side info. AND WE DON’T WANT TO KNOW.

[2010/04/13 14:54] Morgaine Dinova: The LLSD is NOT secret, jeez, it’s the serialization standard. We’re even documenting it in VWRAP!

[2010/04/13 14:55] Morgaine Dinova: But that’s sent to the viewer, Lonely. Hw can it be secret?

[2010/04/13 14:55] Karen Palen: bye all see you all next week!

[2010/04/13 14:55] Govern Overland: too many people are taking LLSD…. *shakes head*

[2010/04/13 14:56] Zarutian Morpork: well time for me to eat

[2010/04/13 14:56] Zarutian Morpork: cya

[2010/04/13 14:57] Morgaine Dinova: I don’t understand why we’re discussing what is sent between sims. It’s unrelated to viewers at all. (It’s interesting technically, but not relevant to us here)

[2010/04/13 14:58] Morgaine Dinova: Ah, OK, yack away, hehe. 🙂 I’m interested technically, but let;s be clear this doesn’t apply to the TPV thing.

[2010/04/13 14:59] LathaSerevi: I’m picking up my chat relay and TP’ing home, unless someone on quickfox yells now.

[2010/04/13 15:00] Serenity Rosencrans: when you start getting stalked…

[2010/04/13 15:00] Morgaine Dinova: One interesting thing about the “sim to sim” traffic will become relevant in VWRAP, since third party sims will be connected to SL sims. Even if there is a a protected interface between them, any “sim to sim” traffic will appear there.

[2010/04/13 15:00] Serenity Rosencrans: you start seeing the benefits of the privacy stuff

[2010/04/13 15:04] Latha Serevi: Chat no longer being relayed to quickfox. I’m off, cheers.

[2010/04/13 15:04] Morgaine Dinova: Thank you very much Latha, great work 🙂

[2010/04/13 15:05] Serenity Rosencrans: i disagree

[2010/04/13 15:05] Serenity Rosencrans: people send you way more IMs when you are online

[2010/04/13 15:05] Serenity Rosencrans: when they know you are online

[2010/04/13 15:05] Serenity Rosencrans: i get so many IMs….

[2010/04/13 15:06] Serenity Rosencrans: when they let you hide yourself they dropped by like 300%

[2010/04/13 15:06] Serenity Rosencrans: it was one of the best things for me ever introduced in SL

[2010/04/13 15:06] Dale Glass: ok, back to getting stuff done, hopefully. Later!

[2010/04/13 15:06] Lonely Bluebird: .

[2010/04/13 15:09] CPU Core: welcome back Joe

[2010/04/13 15:10] Morgaine Dinova: Might I suggest that Emerald publishes that information in a page “List of Purposes for which Emerald Phones Home.” Make it comprehensive, make it clear, be honest and don’t hide anything.

[2010/04/13 15:11] Geneko Nemeth tries to stream voice chat fom his computer, without success

[2010/04/13 15:12] Morgaine Dinova: Shouldn’t the TPV Directory require registered viewers to fully disclose why they phone home?

[2010/04/13 15:14] Vaalith Jinn: 😮

[2010/04/13 15:15] Morgaine Dinova: Lonely: phoning home is a perfect vector for keyloggers. You can’t be suggesting that TPVs don’t disclose what they phone home for, surely.

[2010/04/13 15:15] Morgaine Dinova: Good

[2010/04/13 15:18] Morgaine Dinova: Lonely, you’re missing the point. A malicious person could take Emerald sources and add keylogging. For your own protection, you need to list any Emerald phone-homing so that anything else is obviously not your fault.

[2010/04/13 15:18] Morgaine Dinova: One at a time! 🙂

[2010/04/13 15:19] Fractured Crystal: http://modularsystems.sl/dl.php?file=Emerald_1.23.5.1633_source.7z

[2010/04/13 15:20] Morgaine Dinova: Fractured/Lonely (hard to hell who says anything, you’re talking over each other) — the point is that someone monitoring a viewer with Wireshark can’t distinguish between your valid phone-homes and keylogging.

[2010/04/13 15:21] Kyrah Abattoir: checksum won’t match

[2010/04/13 15:21] Geneko Nemeth: Kyrah: Point.

[2010/04/13 15:22] Morgaine Dinova: I gather from the objections that Emerald doesn’t want to list its reasons for phoning home. Interesting. (And we all know why too, given past history)

[2010/04/13 15:23] Morgaine Dinova: “Listed in source code” is not a list.

[2010/04/13 15:25] Kyrah Abattoir: oh wb joe

[2010/04/13 15:25] Morgaine Dinova: A web page listing the exact stuff you phone home would be an official Emerald policy declaring that you do not send more. It should be a matter of honor. I’m surprised you’re bucking it.

[2010/04/13 15:25] Morgaine Dinova: That lists what you send?

[2010/04/13 15:25] Morgaine Dinova: I didn’t say “collect”. I said send

[2010/04/13 15:26] Morgaine Dinova: SEND

[2010/04/13 15:26] Morgaine Dinova: Absolutely not

[2010/04/13 15:26] Serenity Rosencrans: Fractured: you are a very good spokesperson for Emerald 🙂

[2010/04/13 15:26] Fractured Crystal: http://i43.tinypic.com/35m1h7n.jpg

[2010/04/13 15:27] Morgaine Dinova: Yup?

[2010/04/13 15:27] Morgaine Dinova: I like honesty and openness.

[2010/04/13 15:28] Vaalith Jinn: j, i dont trust you :p

[2010/04/13 15:31] Kyrah Abattoir: meh it’s late i guess i’m gonna end the evening on deadspace

[2010/04/13 15:31] Kyrah Abattoir: have fun you all 🙂

[2010/04/13 15:32] Serenity Rosencrans: Fractured: is there any chance anyone from Emerald might be looking at the HUD alpha problems that Linden Labs seems to be ignoring?

[2010/04/13 15:33] Morgaine Dinova: Grep and sed are great. That’s how Latif found the obfuscated phone-home code in Emerald.

[2010/04/13 15:34] Morgaine Dinova: You obfuscated it, Lonely. It was the obfuscation that ruined your reputation. The message was “This was written by untrusted kiddies.”

[2010/04/13 15:34] Morgaine Dinova: OK, whoever it was

[2010/04/13 15:34] Fractured Crystal: ht tp://

[2010/04/13 15:34] Merato Zilz: neil

[2010/04/13 15:34] Merato Zilz: yea

[2010/04/13 15:35] Morgaine Dinova: Look, you’re trying to justify bad things you did. Just don’t.

[2010/04/13 15:35] Vaalith Jinn: how is making it more difficult to skip permissions a bad thing?

[2010/04/13 15:36] Morgaine Dinova: Obfuscation is a very bad thing. What would you say if another TPV developer used obfuscation for infringing on content copyright?

[2010/04/13 15:36] Morgaine Dinova: Well you should care, because obfuscation would prevent us detecting the content copyright infringement.

[2010/04/13 15:37] Morgaine Dinova: LOL

[2010/04/13 15:37] Serenity Rosencrans: cogent?

[2010/04/13 15:38] Govern Overland: Genitals are bad! they can be used to do bad things!

[2010/04/13 15:38] Morgaine Dinova: Obfuscation can be used for good and for bad, but it’s ABSOLUTELY NOT DONE in open source.

[2010/04/13 15:39] Serenity Rosencrans: lol

[2010/04/13 15:39] Morgaine Dinova: You guys are trying to shrug off what you did, and it doesn’t come across very nice.

[2010/04/13 15:40] Vaalith Jinn: haha boylane

[2010/04/13 15:40] Morgaine Dinova: Your battle with Neil is not our problem. Just don’t bother us with your arms race with Neil. Keep open source clean.

[2010/04/13 15:40] Govern Overland: Isn’t boy lane a she?

[2010/04/13 15:41] Morgaine Dinova: Sorry if defending open source offends you.

[2010/04/13 15:41] Zarutian Morpork: h’lo all. You are STILL at it

[2010/04/13 15:41] Fractured Crystal: /////////////////////
[truct jcb
[
[ifdef LL_WINDOWS
[define JC_BIND_INLINE __forceinline
[else
[define JC_BIND_INLINE inline
[endif
[
[define JC_BIND_UPDN(x,y) x ## y
[
[define JC_BIND_UPDATER_GENERATE(JC_BIND_TYPE, JC_BIND_RETURN) \
[C_BIND_INLINE static void JC_BIND_UPDN(bind_llcontrol_updater_,JC_BIND_TYPE)(const LLSD &data, JC_BIND_TYPE* reciever){ *reciever = JC_BIND_RETURN; }
[
[define JC_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE(JC_BIND_FUNCNAME, JC_BIND_CONTROLGROUP, JC_BIND_TYPE, JC_BIND_RETURN) \
[C_BIND_INLINE static bool JC_BIND_FUNCNAME(const char* name, JC_BIND_TYPE* reciever, bool init) \
[ \
[if(name) \
[{ \
[return JC_BIND_FUNCNAME(std::string(name), reciever, init); \
[} \
[return false; \
[ \
[C_BIND_INLINE static bool JC_BIND_FUNCNAME(std::string& name, JC_BIND_TYPE* reciever, bool init) \
[ \
[LLControlVariable* var = JC_BIND_CONTROLGROUP.getControl(name); \
[if(var) \
[{ \
[boost::signal* signal = var->getSignal(); \
[if(signal) \
[{ \
[signal->connect(boost::bind(&JC_BIND_UPDN(bind_llcontrol
[2010/04/13 15:41] Fractured Crystal: _updater_,JC_BIND_TYPE), _1, reciever)); \
[if(init)jcb::JC_BIND_UPDN(bind_llcontrol_updater_,JC_BIND_TYPE)(var->getValue(),reciever); \
[return true; \
[} \
[} \
[return false; \
[
[
[ypedef std::string jcb_string;//hack around :: in function names due to macro expansion
[
[C_BIND_UPDATER_GENERATE(S32, data.asInteger())
[C_BIND_UPDATER_GENERATE(F32, data.asReal())
[C_BIND_UPDATER_GENERATE(U32, data.asInteger())
[C_BIND_UPDATER_GENERATE(jcb_string, data.asString())
[C_BIND_UPDATER_GENERATE(LLVector3, data)
[C_BIND_UPDATER_GENERATE(LLVector3d, data)
[C_BIND_UPDATER_GENERATE(LLRect, data)
[C_BIND_UPDATER_GENERATE(LLColor4U, data)
[C_BIND_UPDATER_GENERATE(LLColor4, data)
[C_BIND_UPDATER_GENERATE(LLSD, data)
[
[define JC_BIND_FUNCS_GENERATE(JC_BIND_FUNCNAME, JC_BIND_CONTROLGROUP) \
[C_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE(JC_BIND_FUNCNAME, JC_BIND_CONTROLGROUP, S32, data.asInteger()) \
[C_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE(JC_BIND_FUNCNAME, JC_BIND_CONTROLGROUP, F32, data.asReal()) \
[C_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE(JC_BIND_FUNCNAME, JC_BIND_CONTROLGROUP, U32, data.asInteger()) \
[C_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE(JC_BIND_FUNCNAME, JC_BIND_CONTROLGROUP, jcb_string, data.asString()) \
[C_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE(JC_BIND_FUNCNAME, JC_BIND_CONTROLGROUP,
[2010/04/13 15:41] Fractured Crystal: data.asInteger()) \
[C_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE(JC_BIND_FUNCNAME, JC_BIND_CONTROLGROUP, jcb_string, data.asString()) \
[C_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE(JC_BIND_FUNCNAME, JC_BIND_CONTROLGROUP, LLVector3, data) \
[C_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE(JC_BIND_FUNCNAME, JC_BIND_CONTROLGROUP, LLVector3d, data) \
[C_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE(JC_BIND_FUNCNAME, JC_BIND_CONTROLGROUP, LLRect, data) \
[C_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE(JC_BIND_FUNCNAME, JC_BIND_CONTROLGROUP, LLColor4U, data) \
[C_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE(JC_BIND_FUNCNAME, JC_BIND_CONTROLGROUP, LLColor4, data) \
[C_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE(JC_BIND_FUNCNAME, JC_BIND_CONTROLGROUP, LLSD, data)
[
[C_BIND_FUNCS_GENERATE(bind_gsavedsetting, gSavedSettings)
[
[C_BIND_FUNCS_GENERATE(bind_gsavedperaccountsetting, gSavedPerAccountSettings)
[
[C_BIND_FUNCS_GENERATE(bind_gcolor, gColors)
[
[/JC_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE(BOOL, data.asBoolean())
[/equivalent to S32
[/JC_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE(LLColor3, data)
[/effectively equivalent to LLColor4
[
[undef JC_BIND_INLINE
[undef JC_BIND_UPDATER_GENERATE
[undef JC_BIND_FUNC_GENERATE
[undef JC_BIND_FUNCS_GENERATE
[undef JC_BIND_UPDN
[define bind_gsavedsetting jcb::bind_gsavedsetting
[define bind_gsavedperaccountsetting jcb::bind_gsavedperaccountsetting
[define bind_gcolor j
[2010/04/13 15:41] Fractured Crystal: NCS_GENERATE
[undef JC_BIND_UPDN
[define bind_gsavedsetting jcb::bind_gsavedsetting
[define bind_gsavedperaccountsetting jcb::bind_gsavedperaccountsetting
[define bind_gcolor jcb::bind_gcolor

[2010/04/13 15:41] Morgaine Dinova: Because you’re a kiddie?

[2010/04/13 15:41] Vaalith Jinn: jesus christ j :/

[2010/04/13 15:42] Vaalith Jinn: Morgaine, why personal insults? that hurts

[2010/04/13 15:42] Govern Overland: making every variable and funtion a random string or characters would drive you to an early grave.

[2010/04/13 15:42] Serenity Rosencrans: why does opensource require defending?

[2010/04/13 15:43] Morgaine Dinova: I think you know what I’m trying to do. Just be open and honest and a good open source citizen.

[2010/04/13 15:43] Merato Zilz: its because its unknown.

[2010/04/13 15:43] Geneko Nemeth: Serenity: Because it’s now at the time of the greatest peril?

[2010/04/13 15:43] Merato Zilz: they get scared

[2010/04/13 15:43] Serenity Rosencrans: hehe ok 🙂

[2010/04/13 15:43] Merato Zilz: time of the greatest penile

[2010/04/13 15:43] Geneko Nemeth: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_of_the_volunteers)

[2010/04/13 15:43] Vaalith Jinn: actually it is just the gpl.

[2010/04/13 15:44] Serenity Rosencrans: there are other open source licenses

[2010/04/13 15:44] CPU Core: open source is evil 🙂

[2010/04/13 15:44] Serenity Rosencrans: which are very different from the gpl

[2010/04/13 15:44] Zarutian Morpork: CPU COre: how so?

[2010/04/13 15:45] Merato Zilz: where is prok when you need her

[2010/04/13 15:45] Zarutian Morpork: Any code not evil? Ya havent met many ais. 😉

[2010/04/13 15:45] Serenity Rosencrans: i am just saying that defending “open source” seems weird to me… since it is such a broad thing

[2010/04/13 15:46] CPU Core: theres a catch to anything free

[2010/04/13 15:46] Serenity Rosencrans: it can mean so many different things

[2010/04/13 15:46] Zarutian Morpork: the process but not the program

[2010/04/13 15:46] Serenity Rosencrans: 😛

[2010/04/13 15:47] Zarutian Morpork: dogs are aware of themselfs but not very mathematical intelligent

[2010/04/13 15:47] Zarutian Morpork: topic straying like stray dogs 😉

[2010/04/13 15:47] Serenity Rosencrans: i doubt dogs can think about themselves that well

[2010/04/13 15:49] Zarutian Morpork: Lonely: Katnip?

[2010/04/13 15:49] Vaalith Jinn: it would j

[2010/04/13 15:49] Lonely Bluebird: Maybe.

[2010/04/13 15:50] Zarutian Morpork: who has sim that big?

[2010/04/13 15:50] Lonely Bluebird: Up.

[2010/04/13 15:50] Zarutian Morpork: more than half a kilo klick?

[2010/04/13 15:50] Morgaine Dinova: load

[2010/04/13 15:51] Zarutian Morpork: yes it does

[2010/04/13 15:51] Merato Zilz: this is the corner of 4 sims

[2010/04/13 15:51] Xah Combat Dive Roll Hud Demo v1.4.5: This is a Demo. To buy the Dive Roll, see: http://xahlee.org/sl/xah_combat_dive_roll.html

[2010/04/13 15:52] Merato Zilz: but you can do that in any viewer

[2010/04/13 15:52] Merato Zilz: its in the debug settigns

[2010/04/13 15:52] Zarutian Morpork: but isnt high draw distance very lag inducing for clients?

[2010/04/13 15:52] Merato Zilz: really?

[2010/04/13 15:52] Merato Zilz: render prims

[2010/04/13 15:52] Merato Zilz: ?

[2010/04/13 15:55] Morgaine Dinova: The natural tendency is to *reduce* your draw distance, to reduce lag. It’s not realistic to suggest that a significant number of people will raise it to 1024. As long as the default is much lower, it’s not an issue.

[2010/04/13 15:55] Govern Overland: my GTX 480s are coming.. I want a 4096 draw distanc e:P

[2010/04/13 15:57] Morgaine Dinova: Govern: got a power station in your back yard? 😉

[2010/04/13 15:57] Zarutian Morpork: GTX 480s?

[2010/04/13 15:57] CPU Core: when i use extreme draw distance it doesnt seem like the areas actually draw until i take the camera there

[2010/04/13 15:57] Govern Overland: Hahaha.

[2010/04/13 15:57] Vaalith Jinn: >.> *keeps quiet*

[2010/04/13 15:58] Zarutian Morpork: Vaalith: hmm?

[2010/04/13 15:59] Zarutian Morpork: Google it! 😉

[2010/04/13 15:59] Merato Zilz: griefing?

[2010/04/13 15:59] Zarutian Morpork: Angela: YOU are the one that wrote about LambdaMOO and stuff?

[2010/04/13 16:00] Zarutian Morpork: How so, Fractured Crystal?

[2010/04/13 16:01] Zarutian Morpork: hash those ids and use that

[2010/04/13 16:02] Geneko Nemeth: A Bloom filter?

[2010/04/13 16:02] Zarutian Morpork: sha1 or sha256 or md5 might work

[2010/04/13 16:02] Geneko Nemeth: ids are already hashes

[2010/04/13 16:03] Geneko Nemeth: Zarutian: You might

[2010/04/13 16:03] Geneko Nemeth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom_filter

[2010/04/13 16:03] Zarutian Morpork: Free contant uploads?

[2010/04/13 16:04] Vaalith Jinn: convex hulls?

[2010/04/13 16:04] Zarutian Morpork: content*

[2010/04/13 16:04] Merato Zilz: have you been to Q?

[2010/04/13 16:04] Merato Zilz: that maze is enormous

[2010/04/13 16:05] Zarutian Morpork: Hacking as hacking in the original sense?

[2010/04/13 16:05] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, good 3D maze made by Qarl

[2010/04/13 16:05] Zarutian Morpork: Merato: is that in SL or some other virtual world?

[2010/04/13 16:05] Merato Zilz: a

[2010/04/13 16:05] Merato Zilz: yep

[2010/04/13 16:05] Zarutian Morpork: slurl to it please?

[2010/04/13 16:06] Merato Zilz: its just the sim called Q

[2010/04/13 16:07] Zarutian Morpork: Merato: found it

[2010/04/13 16:07] Zarutian Morpork: what mono bug?

[2010/04/13 16:08] Morgaine Dinova: Why is their hyperthreading turned off, is it known?

[2010/04/13 16:08] Serenity Rosencrans: the one that causes the sims to freeze?

[2010/04/13 16:08] Zarutian Morpork: using unused cpu parts

[2010/04/13 16:08] Zarutian Morpork: I see

[2010/04/13 16:10] Zarutian Morpork: the event broadcaster might have been left a lone for a small while

[2010/04/13 16:10] Zarutian Morpork: (of that sim)

[2010/04/13 16:11] Zarutian Morpork: nice

[2010/04/13 16:12] Merato Zilz: what isthis aout bots?

[2010/04/13 16:12] Zarutian Morpork: griefers

[2010/04/13 16:14] Zarutian Morpork: what did Knuth say? Validate your programs inputs!

[2010/04/13 16:14] Merato Zilz: is it the loop script?

[2010/04/13 16:14] Merato Zilz: anyways

[2010/04/13 16:14] Govern Overland: Mmm self replicating physical prims are my favorite~

[2010/04/13 16:14] Zarutian Morpork: more like a ping of doom

[2010/04/13 16:14] Merato Zilz: hav 7 will be here soon enough and we’ll se a whole new slew of crashers

[2010/04/13 16:15] Morgaine Dinova: Mind boggles what the sim code is like, if sending packets is so unvalidated.

[2010/04/13 16:15] Mojito Sorbet: An infinite number of monkeys, coding in C++, will eventually write the SL sim. In fact, they already have done

[2010/04/13 16:15] Zarutian Morpork: could even fake the source ip if their isp isnt egress filtering their traffic

[2010/04/13 16:16] Zarutian Morpork: format string vulern.s?

[2010/04/13 16:16] Mojito Sorbet: already MAY have done

[2010/04/13 16:16] Zarutian Morpork: the assest dbs?

[2010/04/13 16:16] Zarutian Morpork: aah, customer dbs

[2010/04/13 16:16] Merato Zilz: i remember when they lifted all the CC numbers

[2010/04/13 16:16] Merato Zilz: yes

[2010/04/13 16:16] Merato Zilz: that was 2006

[2010/04/13 16:17] Zarutian Morpork: I lost a account due to that pw reset

[2010/04/13 16:17] Merato Zilz: are you sure?

[2010/04/13 16:17] Zarutian Morpork: Merato: this is one of the whys I dont have CC

[2010/04/13 16:17] Merato Zilz: im almost 99% sure that it was an issue

[2010/04/13 16:18] Zarutian Morpork: write it down in the chat please

[2010/04/13 16:19] Zarutian Morpork: “Hacked by the Chinese!”

[2010/04/13 16:19] Geneko Nemeth is Chinese, you insensitive clod!

[2010/04/13 16:19] Angela Talamasca: http://attrition.org/

[2010/04/13 16:19] Zarutian Morpork: stop those xkcds refs please

[2010/04/13 16:19] Zarutian Morpork: got too many memes in my head already 😉

[2010/04/13 16:20] Techwolf Lupindo: http://xkcd.com/327/

[2010/04/13 16:20] Techwolf Lupindo grins eveillly

[2010/04/13 16:20] Geneko Nemeth: http://bobby-tables.com/

[2010/04/13 16:20] Angela Talamasca: http://attrition.org/postal/z/033/0871.html

[2010/04/13 16:21] Zarutian Morpork: mind games

[2010/04/13 16:21] Fractured Crystal: Isn’t that really an asshole thing to do? Yes. Are you allowed to post their private e-mails like that? Yes.

[2010/04/13 16:21] Zarutian Morpork: getting illegal access, eh?

[2010/04/13 16:22] Zarutian Morpork: “ACLs dont”

[2010/04/13 16:22] Zarutian Morpork: That is typical Comcast

[2010/04/13 16:23] Lonely Bluebird: Wow, I feel dumb now. I honestly cannot rember if there were pigeons on campus or not. A lot of crazy squirrels, but I can’t remember pigeons. Just for my own edification, why do you need to know that? I’ll find out for you.

[2010/04/13 16:23] Mojito Sorbet: Was your campus in a temperate zone? If so, it probably had pigeons

[2010/04/13 16:24] Zarutian Morpork: they should ask “What is your address?”?

[2010/04/13 16:24] Serenity Rosencrans: Have a nice afternoon everyone 🙂

[2010/04/13 16:24] Serenity Rosencrans waves

[2010/04/13 16:24] Zarutian Morpork: social engineering is rather easy if you are confident

[2010/04/13 16:24] Noor Loam: You’re a chubby one eh CG

[2010/04/13 16:26] Govern Overland: I usually get around 80fps.

[2010/04/13 16:26] Moy Loon: .

CPU: AMD (9950 BE) (2925 MHz)

Memory: 8191 MB
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 64-bit (Build 7600)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 280/PCI/SSE2

[2010/04/13 16:27] Zarutian Morpork is on a macbook 13″

[2010/04/13 16:27] Geneko Nemeth: CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T8100 @ 2.10GHz

Memory: 2011 MB
OS Version: Linux 2.6.31-20-generic #58-Ubuntu SMP Fri Mar 12 05:23:09 UTC 2010 i686
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: GeForce 8600M GT/PCI/SSE2

[2010/04/13 16:28] Zarutian Morpork: what I am pining for is memristor multilayer fpga array based processor

[2010/04/13 16:28] Geneko Nemeth prefers his desktops self-assembled, but prefers laptops over desktops

[2010/04/13 16:28] Fractured Crystal: http://attrition.org/news/mc/attrition-priceless.jpg

[2010/04/13 16:29] Geneko Nemeth: “pwned”

[2010/04/13 16:29] Zarutian Morpork: pwnd

[2010/04/13 16:29] Zarutian Morpork: pawned or owned

[2010/04/13 16:29] Zarutian Morpork: did voice just die?

[2010/04/13 16:29] Geneko Nemeth: No, like “owned” ~= s/o/p/

[2010/04/13 16:29] Noor Loam: pwnd

[2010/04/13 16:29] Moy Loon: Yeah, my voice isn’t working either

[2010/04/13 16:29] Zarutian Morpork: all of you at the same time

[2010/04/13 16:30] Zarutian Morpork: I recog. the diff.

[2010/04/13 16:30] Zarutian Morpork: that is a script kiddie

[2010/04/13 16:30] Zarutian Morpork: voice issues again?

[2010/04/13 16:31] Techwolf Lupindo: Is anyone else havinng voice issues all ofa sudden?

[2010/04/13 16:31] Zarutian Morpork: Techwolf: I notice some lags

[2010/04/13 16:32] Morgaine Dinova: Voice is getting tired. Feed the hampsters.

[2010/04/13 16:32] Noor Loam: he is a scorpio!

[2010/04/13 16:33] Zarutian Morpork: most unlikely that he did code it up

[2010/04/13 16:33] Zarutian Morpork: scare them a bit

[2010/04/13 16:33] Zarutian Morpork: I dont know

[2010/04/13 16:34] Zarutian Morpork: it takes an inquistive minds to find some stuff

[2010/04/13 16:34] Govern Overland: red tape attacked us.

[2010/04/13 16:34] Zarutian Morpork: what is that red tape?

[2010/04/13 16:35] Zarutian Morpork: LL says in their tos “NO WARRANTY”

[2010/04/13 16:36] Zarutian Morpork: but want warranty from the third party viewers developers

[2010/04/13 16:37] Zarutian Morpork: FUD ya say

[2010/04/13 16:37] Zarutian Morpork: a suited cat

[2010/04/13 16:37] Morgaine Dinova: Numerous people here explained during Joe’s meeting why the TPV does open devs to suits from downstream users. Saying “I don’t think it does” after those people have left isn’t helpful.

[2010/04/13 16:37] Govern Overland: You have to be a furry to do it..

[2010/04/13 16:38] Zarutian Morpork: Govern: ya sure?

[2010/04/13 16:39] Govern Overland: naked puppies?

[2010/04/13 16:39] CPU Core: Zindrans are losing money.. less customers over there

[2010/04/13 16:40] Morgaine Dinova: Colt close your mic

[2010/04/13 16:41] Noor Loam: lol yea there is lag

[2010/04/13 16:42] CPU Core: openspaces used as normal homes for a few people was fine

[2010/04/13 16:43] Govern Overland: I used to live in an open space sim……. and I was okay with the times it lagged. it was the *ONLY* time I could have ever afforded my own sim…

[2010/04/13 16:44] Zarutian Morpork: nice totem pole

[2010/04/13 16:44] Morgaine Dinova: Funny huh, all other technology drops pricing as tech improves, while SL’s prices rise with time.

[2010/04/13 16:45] Nomad Padar: Miraculous considering it’s not Havok 1 anymore.

[2010/04/13 16:45] Zarutian Morpork: not going to enter USA in this law climate

[2010/04/13 16:46] Morgaine Dinova: And don’t use your credit card there, take cash

[2010/04/13 16:46] Zarutian Morpork: when did the d drop out of madam?

[2010/04/13 16:47] Govern Overland: def con must not be a furry con.. sharing hotel rooms there usually involves buttsecks doesn’t it?

[2010/04/13 16:47] Govern Overland snickers.

[2010/04/13 16:47] Moy Loon: This is a PG region

[2010/04/13 16:47] Moy Loon: 😉

[2010/04/13 16:48] Noor Loam: lololl

[2010/04/13 16:49] Nomad Padar: Yellow Unix T-shirt with Cheetoh stains.

[2010/04/13 16:49] Govern Overland: Playfully Grotesque?

[2010/04/13 16:49] Zarutian Morpork uses chopstics to eat cheetos

[2010/04/13 16:50] Nomad Padar: I whipe my sweat onto my mousepad.

[2010/04/13 16:50] Zarutian Morpork: Rivest, eh?

[2010/04/13 16:51] Sherry4853 Teardrop: this is a PG place

[2010/04/13 16:51] Zarutian Morpork: that patent has expired I think

[2010/04/13 16:51] Zarutian Morpork: haha

[2010/04/13 16:51] Zarutian Morpork: like HobboHotel?

[2010/04/13 16:51] Zarutian Morpork: pardon? could you repeat?

[2010/04/13 16:52] Zarutian Morpork: Angela?

[2010/04/13 16:52] Zarutian Morpork: Blue Mars or Open Croquet/Cobalt?

[2010/04/13 16:53] Katelyn Manamiko: Moy why does that matter? Your eye can’t detect anything above about 20 FPS

[2010/04/13 16:54] Zarutian Morpork: Angela: you run your sim on your own server or?

[2010/04/13 16:54] Nomad Padar: Angela, I was kidding about the PG thing by the way. <3

[2010/04/13 16:54] Katelyn Manamiko: eww

[2010/04/13 16:55] Zarutian Morpork: that is agiga time sucker

[2010/04/13 16:56] Nomad Padar: when c# comes to SL, I’m going to shit a brick.

[2010/04/13 16:56] Zarutian Morpork: Angela: did you say Lua?

[2010/04/13 16:56] Zarutian Morpork: Nomad: can I buy that brick?

[2010/04/13 16:56] Nomad Padar: No, it is mine.

[2010/04/13 16:56] Zarutian Morpork: gonna polish it, eh?

[2010/04/13 16:57] Zarutian Morpork: scape?

[2010/04/13 16:57] Nomad Padar: region

[2010/04/13 16:57] Zarutian Morpork: snell?

[2010/04/13 16:59] Zarutian Morpork: Blue Mars is an Crysis MOD?

[2010/04/13 16:59] Govern Overland: Somehow you’re not convincing me that blue mars is the place to be….

[2010/04/13 16:59] Zarutian Morpork: Govern: I agree you on that

[2010/04/13 16:59] Zarutian Morpork: common stuff

[2010/04/13 17:00] Zarutian Morpork: sounds too fracking complicated

[2010/04/13 17:00] Zarutian Morpork: GMOD or gmud?

[2010/04/13 17:00] Moy Loon: gmod

[2010/04/13 17:01] Zarutian Morpork: Open Croquet with Simplifed TeaTime was/is a good idea

[2010/04/13 17:01] Govern Overland: gmod is a half-life mod.

[2010/04/13 17:02] Nomad Padar: Meshes incoming.

[2010/04/13 17:02] Zarutian Morpork: so voxel “images” might be the next object type

[2010/04/13 17:03] Zarutian Morpork: just make it like an single player so to speak

[2010/04/13 17:03] Zarutian Morpork: is unreal now free?

[2010/04/13 17:04] Nomad Padar: Unreal is pretty nice.

[2010/04/13 17:04] Zarutian Morpork: isnt unreal scriptable/programmable in lua?

[2010/04/13 17:05] Zarutian Morpork: yes, it is handy to embed

[2010/04/13 17:05] Zarutian Morpork: machine code is slow compared to asics 😉

[2010/04/13 17:06] Zarutian Morpork: pointer you say

[2010/04/13 17:06] Elenka Aria: Привет всем

[2010/04/13 17:06] Elenka Aria: Hi all

[2010/04/13 17:06] Morgaine Dinova: Yep

[2010/04/13 17:06] Morgaine Dinova: It was designed for embedding and extending, specifically

[2010/04/13 17:06] Elenka Aria: Отдолжите L$ отдам позже

[2010/04/13 17:06] Elenka Aria: Otdolzhite L $ will give later

[2010/04/13 17:06] Morgaine Dinova: I use Luda extensively

[2010/04/13 17:06] Morgaine Dinova: Lua

[2010/04/13 17:07] Morgaine Dinova: No it wasn’t

[2010/04/13 17:07] Elenka Aria: дайте L$ отдам позже

[2010/04/13 17:07] Elenka Aria: Give L $ will give later

[2010/04/13 17:07] Zarutian Morpork: jebb

[2010/04/13 17:07] Morgaine Dinova: It’s probably Neil 😛

[2010/04/13 17:07] Elenka Aria: кто мне даст?

[2010/04/13 17:07] Elenka Aria: Who will give me?

[2010/04/13 17:08] Zarutian Morpork: “Crysis capable” 😉

[2010/04/13 17:08] Zarutian Morpork: Elenka: 42 zorkmids it will take

[2010/04/13 17:08] Elenka Aria: ок

[2010/04/13 17:08] Elenka Aria: app

[2010/04/13 17:08] Elenka Aria: давай

[2010/04/13 17:08] Elenka Aria: “come on”,[[“interjection”,”let’s!”,”come on!”,”pull baker!”,”pull devil!”]]

[2010/04/13 17:08] Katelyn Manamiko: there’s no hype

[2010/04/13 17:09] Elenka Aria: ок, как в Турцию попасть?

[2010/04/13 17:09] Elenka Aria: about how to get to Turkey?

[2010/04/13 17:09] Zarutian Morpork: nice, part of that bot just barfed a part of its sentence struturing tree

[2010/04/13 17:09] Govern Overland: lol

[2010/04/13 17:10] Zarutian Morpork: voice muted there for a sec

[2010/04/13 17:10] Elenka Aria: кто подскажет?

[2010/04/13 17:10] Elenka Aria: Who will tell?

[2010/04/13 17:10] Morgaine Dinova: Very short first paragraph will tell you what Lua was designed for — http://www.lua.org/about.html

[2010/04/13 17:10] Zarutian Morpork: Elnka: Turing

[2010/04/13 17:10] Elenka Aria: ок

[2010/04/13 17:10] Elenka Aria: app

[2010/04/13 17:11] Angela Talamasca: singularity magic

[2010/04/13 17:11] Zarutian Morpork: Morgaine: data entry of stuff from chemstry or astronomey

[2010/04/13 17:11] Morgaine Dinova: Zaru: it was never developed for data entry purposes.

[2010/04/13 17:11] Racush Cheeky: XD;

[2010/04/13 17:12] Zarutian Morpork: that sounded like emacs shortcut

[2010/04/13 17:12] Govern Overland: I’m old school.. I’ve been using the camera controls huddy thing since I came to SL 5 years ago LOL

[2010/04/13 17:14] Zarutian Morpork: haha

[2010/04/13 17:14] Zarutian Morpork: single threaded

[2010/04/13 17:14] Zarutian Morpork: but mutli threading is so hard to program for if you use shared mutable state

[2010/04/13 17:15] Govern Overland: Okay seriously.. isnt there other short people you can run into constantly?? don’t make me go and find a push shield..

[2010/04/13 17:17] Govern Overland: I hate it..

[2010/04/13 17:17] Morgaine Dinova: The problem is the rendering loop that’s single threaded. It’s not the whole client, that uses a pile of threads (about 8-10 for viewer and another 10-12 for Voice), but those threads are just for making various long-duration calls non-blocking. They don’t load-balance the viewer over cores at all.

[2010/04/13 17:17] Govern Overland: cause then when I turn around I gotta re-rezz everything.

[2010/04/13 17:18] Zarutian Morpork: not proper dataflow splitting?

[2010/04/13 17:18] Zarutian Morpork: (see flow based programming)

[2010/04/13 17:19] Morgaine Dinova: Yeah, I know, but it’s exacerbated in the LL viewer, because networking and rendering use the same loop. That’s why when your viewer is rendering at exactly 1.0 FPS, your ping times become exactly 1,000 ms.

[2010/04/13 17:19] Moy Loon: Welcome to every game Morgaine

[2010/04/13 17:19] Morgaine Dinova: Moy: nope, welcome to crap coding

[2010/04/13 17:20] Zarutian Morpork doesnt do class inheritence

[2010/04/13 17:20] Moy Loon: 99% of games use a single thread for netword/rendering

[2010/04/13 17:20] Moy Loon: network *

[2010/04/13 17:21] Zarutian Morpork: rewrite regulary!

[2010/04/13 17:21] Zarutian Morpork: wow ya are old

[2010/04/13 17:21] Nomad Padar: rewrite regularly? Good luck rewriting SL regularly. 😮

[2010/04/13 17:21] Morgaine Dinova: Moy: only poorly designed ones. I use separate timers to control when my frames are rendered to give me my desired FPS. Busy waiting your rendering loop and handling your networking in that same loop is just bad design.

[2010/04/13 17:22] Moy Loon: So, then you’re saying the majority of game engines are ‘bad code’ then

[2010/04/13 17:22] Govern Overland: Aww.. brings back memories of my first ascii porn for the commodore 64.

[2010/04/13 17:22] Morgaine Dinova: Yep

[2010/04/13 17:22] Zarutian Morpork: Moy: yep

[2010/04/13 17:22] Moy Loon: I’m not saynig that’s wrong, But, nearly ANY agme on market, ping will be 1000+ if yuo’re getting 1 fps

[2010/04/13 17:22] Moy Loon: Generaly, your FPS is atleast 30, so there’s no need to have them seperate

[2010/04/13 17:22] Moy Loon: There’s no need to over complicate thinsg

[2010/04/13 17:22] Moy Loon: Keep it simple, it’ll work.

[2010/04/13 17:23] Zarutian Morpork: Moy: if you can split the stuff onto different cpus then you can speed it up

[2010/04/13 17:23] Moy Loon: What about sending/getting updates is ‘laggy’ or ‘expensive’ then?

[2010/04/13 17:23] Govern Overland: the angry indian guy?

[2010/04/13 17:24] Morgaine Dinova: Mo: Networking should be done in a separate thread or process, do all the decoding and creation of structures with data for GL, and then the rendering callbacks use that data. Coupling the two things together is bad.

[2010/04/13 17:24] Zarutian Morpork: ad hominum

[2010/04/13 17:24] Moy Loon: Most games are NOT streamed, so there’s no decoding of images and such things

[2010/04/13 17:24] Moy Loon: Also, SL does use seperate therads for image decode

[2010/04/13 17:25] Moy Loon: Threads **

[2010/04/13 17:25] Zarutian Morpork: Moy: most games have static content

[2010/04/13 17:25] Moy Loon: That’s what I said

[2010/04/13 17:25] Govern Overland: They are pissing me off..

[2010/04/13 17:25] Govern Overland: well nomad is anyway

[2010/04/13 17:25] Zarutian Morpork: lets jump around

[2010/04/13 17:26] Zarutian Morpork: jumping madness!

[2010/04/13 17:27] Govern Overland: I don’t care about moving… it’s when I getting bumped constantly.. its annoying.

[2010/04/13 17:27] Zarutian Morpork: gives your avatar prana

[2010/04/13 17:28] Morgaine Dinova: It’s your client, and it’s open source. If you don’t like people jumping, display them as not moving 🙂

[2010/04/13 17:31] Zarutian Morpork: strange

[2010/04/13 17:32] Morgaine Dinova: Shouldn’t your bot be reporting its position to your external site, with alerts to tell you about mishaps?

[2010/04/13 17:32] Govern Overland: Ooh sure.. now you’re okay with stuff phoning home 😛

[2010/04/13 17:33] Morgaine Dinova: No developer ever expects the Spanish Inquisition, to mix some metaphors 🙂

[2010/04/13 17:33] Zarutian Morpork: bot phones you and says “I am lost”

[2010/04/13 17:34] Govern Overland: I’ve been greifed tonnes of times.. I used to live in FurNation…. O.o

[2010/04/13 17:34] Zarutian Morpork: I think I got loadstone once

[2010/04/13 17:34] Morgaine Dinova: Next up, “Third Party Bot policy document” ….. 😉

[2010/04/13 17:35] Zarutian Morpork: Govern: FurNation, ever accessed furc?

[2010/04/13 17:35] Govern Overland: No.

[2010/04/13 17:36] Zarutian Morpork: old gmud running since 1996

[2010/04/13 17:37] Govern Overland: I’m surprised they weren’t trying to knock your bot up.. in SL. 😛

[2010/04/13 17:37] Morgaine Dinova: That’s what Radegast is, a libomv-based 2D viewer with the ALICE chat-bot engine plugin. It does a good job, it’s fun to run ALICE in an SL pub and watch people try to chat her up.

[2010/04/13 17:38] Zarutian Morpork: was it like jabberwocky?

[2010/04/13 17:39] Zarutian Morpork: Zork comes to mind

[2010/04/13 17:39] Morgaine Dinova: “You are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike.”

[2010/04/13 17:41] Zarutian Morpork: some people are easily fooled

[2010/04/13 17:42] Zarutian Morpork: David Blane comes to mind

[2010/04/13 17:42] Zarutian Morpork: Techwolf: and you did pronounce my nick correctly. Not many do that 😉

[2010/04/13 17:42] Techwolf Lupindo: 🙂

[2010/04/13 17:43] Govern Overland: zarushan

[2010/04/13 17:43] Zarutian Morpork: Za-ru-ti-an

[2010/04/13 17:43] Govern Overland: well thats not proper english 😛

[2010/04/13 17:43] Zarutian Morpork: something random I came up with long time ago

[2010/04/13 17:45] Govern Overland: My name is rather bonus I think..

[2010/04/13 17:45] Zarutian Morpork: just got sick of getting the good names taken on all the online services

[2010/04/13 17:47] Zarutian Morpork: virch hacks?

[2010/04/13 17:47] Angela Talamasca: vrhacks

[2010/04/13 17:47] Zarutian Morpork: .

[2010/04/13 17:47] Govern Overland: I created a fake company to register for MS Partner Program / Technet.

[2010/04/13 17:48] Govern Overland: I pay 30 bucks a month for a licence to every MS product.. It’s worth it.

[2010/04/13 17:48] Zarutian Morpork: I use bugmenot frequently

[2010/04/13 17:49] Zarutian Morpork still XP with SP2 and propably polaris when it gets open sourced

[2010/04/13 17:50] Zarutian Morpork: fire away

[2010/04/13 17:50] Govern Overland: Umm this is SL.. every girl avatar is a guy.. 😛 GIRL = Guy In Real Life.

[2010/04/13 17:51] Zarutian Morpork: I just choose girl avatar just to have something beutifull to look at 😉

[2010/04/13 17:51] Zarutian Morpork: DEC?!?!?!

[2010/04/13 17:51] Zarutian Morpork: yes, heard about them

[2010/04/13 17:52] Govern Overland: LOL I used to deal with DEC.

[2010/04/13 17:54] Morgaine Dinova: I lectured in Elec Eng and Comp Sci, and the proportion of female students over several years for us was under 15%, so yes, there is a large imbalance. But it gets worse in industry in my experience since then, under 10%.

[2010/04/13 17:56] Govern Overland: ‘butch’ ?

[2010/04/13 17:56] Zarutian Morpork: did any of the engineers bring a cup to drool into?

[2010/04/13 17:58] Zarutian Morpork: 200 000 USD?

[2010/04/13 17:59] Zarutian Morpork: I made about 200 000 in my next last job. ISK though

[2010/04/13 17:59] Zarutian Morpork: not InterStellar Kredit!

[2010/04/13 18:00] Morgaine Dinova: It’s a not a general dislike of technology at all. Our biology department was a good 75% female (a UK university). It just seems to be Computing mostly, which is odd.

[2010/04/13 18:00] Zarutian Morpork: a little joke the Eve devs made

[2010/04/13 18:00] Zarutian Morpork: (ISK is also the currency code for Icleandic Króna)

[2010/04/13 18:01] Zarutian Morpork: Morgaine: “Yellow tshirt with cheetos on it”

[2010/04/13 18:02] Zarutian Morpork: an “externality” to them

[2010/04/13 18:04] Zarutian Morpork: you dont need to be named peroid

[2010/04/13 18:04] Govern Overland: being called dirty names turns you off?

[2010/04/13 18:04] Govern Overland: O.o weird.

[2010/04/13 18:05] Zarutian Morpork: Govern: naah I meant that arguments should stand on their own.

[2010/04/13 18:06] Morgaine Dinova: Governance with herself in control of government policy.

[2010/04/13 18:06] Zarutian Morpork: what makes an place a place online, is feedback

[2010/04/13 18:08] Zarutian Morpork gots loads and loads of free sl stuff

[2010/04/13 18:08] Govern Overland: *gasps* I heard the FBomb in a PG Sim!

[2010/04/13 18:09] Zarutian Morpork: Fbomb? frackbomb? fartbomb?

[2010/04/13 18:09] Govern Overland: *shrugs* not like I care.

[2010/04/13 18:09] Techwolf Lupindo digs in his inventory for a fart bomb…

[2010/04/13 18:09] Zarutian Morpork is so used to cussing that it doesnt affect me

[2010/04/13 18:10] Morgaine Dinova: One thing you said just now Angela resonates with me, the “finding a new place”. In many ways this entire conversation was flawed, because it’s so inwardly focussed about this single walled garden, a lot of navel gazing. Interop is coming, and this place is like the original AOL. It’s too narrow a view.

[2010/04/13 18:10] Govern Overland: they’re not mountains..

[2010/04/13 18:10] Zarutian Morpork: too many people think that other people should look out for them

[2010/04/13 18:10] Govern Overland: look from map view

[2010/04/13 18:11] Techwolf Lupindo: “thats not a moon”

[2010/04/13 18:11] Zarutian Morpork: self reinforcing postive feedback loop, eh?

[2010/04/13 18:11] Zarutian Morpork: “there is no magic” makes it to go away

[2010/04/13 18:12] Zarutian Morpork: may he rest in peace

[2010/04/13 18:12] Morgaine Dinova: There is no special magic here, it’s a magic that is part of any virtual world. If you spend any time in the open grids, you’ll know there’s equal magic there too. It’s just not ready for bigtime there yet, but it’s coming.

[2010/04/13 18:12] Govern Overland: Also.. SL has their ratings F-ed up.. PG is Parental Guidance.. There could be Profanity, Depictions of Violence and Brief Nudity.. so go ahead and fuck it up. 😛

[2010/04/13 18:12] Zarutian Morpork: “humped by retards” I gonna recall that latah 😉

[2010/04/13 18:13] Zarutian Morpork: community is hard to engenerate and maintain

[2010/04/13 18:14] Morgaine Dinova: ReactionGrid is an Opensim grid. It just happens to run the Opensim on Microsoft servers, that’s all, but it’s still Opensim.

[2010/04/13 18:14] Zarutian Morpork waves to Joe

[2010/04/13 18:14] Govern Overland: LOL I’m stull chuckling at the angry indian man…

[2010/04/13 18:14] Morgaine Dinova: We’ve been using 3rd Rock Grid for meetings recently, and that uses Microsoft servers too.

[2010/04/13 18:15] Morgaine Dinova: KK Joe, see you anon 🙂

[2010/04/13 18:15] Zarutian Morpork: just give us an sl url to another place where we can hang out?

[2010/04/13 18:15] Zarutian Morpork just lagged out

[2010/04/13 18:16] Zarutian Morpork: well I am going to Q

[2010/04/13 18:16] Morgaine Dinova waves

[2010/04/13 18:16] Govern Overland: Joe you are missing your right hand.

8 Comments

  1. CommentsVirtuality Hacks   |  Wednesday, 14 April 2010 at 18:47

    ChatLog → http://bit.ly/TPVPbrownBag1 ← partial due puter probs. Btw, @JoeLinden conf some1 was crashing viewers. Talking about gall.

  2. CommentsJay S   |  Wednesday, 14 April 2010 at 21:01

    TPVP Brown Bag Meeting 1 – http://blog.vrhacks.net/?p=224

  3. CommentsVirtuality Hacks   |  Wednesday, 14 April 2010 at 22:23

    Addendum: Gareth Nelson was kind enough to provide a recording of t/TPVp brownbag, which can also be found here: http://bit.ly/TPVPbrownBag1

  4. CommentsHolt_Roussel   |  Thursday, 15 April 2010 at 07:01

    RT @TopsyRT: TPVP Brown Bag Series: Meeting 1 http://bit.ly/bGDRzS

  5. CommentsGrace McDunnough   |  Thursday, 15 April 2010 at 18:48

    Thank you so much for posting and hosting this information.

    Do you know who is the female speaking at the beginning? The one that said "The problem is that um and this is just my opinion is that people just don't like the Third Party Policy and they are looking for a way to stretch and say this is wrong, that is wrong …"

  6. CommentsAngela   |  Thursday, 15 April 2010 at 19:13

    LOL. Yeah, that was me!

  7. CommentsJay S   |  Thursday, 15 April 2010 at 13:27

    Voice recording of TPVP Brown Bag Meeting 1 posted – http://blog.vrhacks.net/?p=224

  8. CommentsTPV: brown bag and changes? « Living in the Modem World   |  Thursday, 15 April 2010 at 17:02

    […] meetings with TPV developers to discuss the Third Party Viewer Policy. The various transcripts and audio recordings make interesting (if headache inducing) reading / […]

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